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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nogray" data-source="post: 5918403" data-attributes="member: 28028">You've made this sort of statement before, and I am genuinely curious as to where it is coming from. I read and reread the sections on initiative and combat in my 1e DMG and PHB, and I just can't find it (or anything like it).Specifically, a while back in the thread, Hussar posted a link:Now his statement of 15 pages of explanation is an exaggeration. (The linked document has a ten page explanation, followed by a lengthy example of a combat with surprise round. Still, your following statement was a largely inaccurate characterization of the linked document:The linked document has two pages on surprise, then a page and about a half on determining encounter distance, then regular initiative concerns are discussed from pages four to ten; this includes spellcasting in melee. After that, there is a six-page example combat (the first three pages of which deal with the surprise segments) and some charts. Everything in the document seems to link to (giving page references) and agree with rules from the Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide.The quoted section from the AD&D books is as follows:What that means to me (and this is backed up by the example that I omitted from the DMG text, above) is that one of a few things happens:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The melee side rolls higher on their d6: The attackers go first, and the spell is spoiled (assuming hits that do damage).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Both sides roll the same number on the d6s: The speed factor of the weapon(s) is compared to the casting time of the spell; that which is faster wins. (In the DMG example, it is a long or broad sword, with a SF of 5, vs. a fireball, with a casting time of 3. In this case, a tie on the init roll means that the spell goes off first.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The caster rolls higher on his d6: You do some subtraction, here. The upshot is that the spell goes off if abs(SF - init roll) >= cast time. (Greater than meaning that the spell goes off first, equal to meaning that the spell and melee are resolved simultaneously; abs refers to "absolute value.")</li> </ul>While researching this, I did make some interesting rediscoveries (to me, anyway). Spoiler-blocks below for some amusing corner cases.[sblock="attack routines"]Things with differing numbers of attacks in their routines don't check for initiative in the normal sense. They instead take turns. If Speedy Sally (with three attacks per round), Average Anna (with two per round), and Ponderous Pam (with just one) are in a three-way battle, you only check for initiative between Sally and Pam; their results are checked to see which goes first in the middle part of the round. Combat will always go as follows:SallyAnnaSally | Pam <-- this is where initiative matters; both act, but which third and which fourth?AnnaSallyThis most easily happens if, for example, Sally is throwing darts (Rate of Fire 3), Anna is throwing daggers (RoF 2), and Pam is throwing hand axes (RoF 1).[/sblock][sblock="speed factors and occasional multiple attacks -or- why awl pikes are dangerous"]On the first round, as opponents close with one another, only weapon length matters in who attacks first. Once in the general melee, regular (one die for each side) initiative commences. It's here that some interesting things can happen.If one side or the other wins the initiative roll, combat is pretty normal, and speed factor doesn't matter one bit. One time in six, though, there will be a tie on the dice-off for init, and when that happens, the faster weapon goes first (makes sense). If the weapon speeds are more than five apart, though, the user of the faster weapon not only attacks before the slower one, he gets to attack twice before the slower one. (Note that a dagger and an open hand attack both get this benefit more often. Daggers --SF of 2-- get the bonus attacks against anything with an SF of 6 or higher, and open-hand attacks --SF of 1-- get it against anything with an SF of 3 or higher, including short swords.)Here's a common sort of example, a duel between swordsmen:Tom uses a two-handed sword and Len uses a long sword (and shield). Assuming equal stats and gear and whatnot, Len has the higher AC, of course, and this is traded off, supposedly, in damage loss. Indeed, that is the case unless they are attacking each other. Tom does, on average, one point more per hit than Len. Five rounds out of six, that damage advantage accumulates for Tom. Every sixth round (on average), though, Len and Tom tie, and because the long sword has a SF of 5 vs. two-handed sword's SF of 10, that means on those tying rounds, Len gets two attacks against Tom. That is an average (assuming no strength or other bonus) of 4.5 damage, which just about completely makes up for the damage advantage Tom was boasting about. (Counting the fact that Tom will miss Len more often than the reverse, it actually more than makes up for it.That rule also has a mention that if the SF differs by 10 or more, the faster weapon attacks twice before and once simultaneously with the slower. Awl pikes are the only weapon with a SF more than 10, though, so they are the only weapon where this matters. Any weapon with an SF of 3 or less attacks three times on those tying rounds when used against an awl pike. While that first round is great for the awl-pike-user (what with it being the longest weapon in the game), it is the only weapon that opens you up to having to face three attacks, should you be fighting someone with a short sword (or faster weapon). Yikes. The moral? Switch weapons after that first round.[/sblock]</blockquote>

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