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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 6233742" data-attributes="member: 5143">I still maintain that the mechanics have always supported this.&nbsp; Try running through the original Tomb of Horrors in 1e.&nbsp; There are only two ways the game goes: You get to the end of the dungeon and &quot;win&quot; or you all die and stop playing the game.&nbsp; I suppose there's a third option where you all die and roll up new characters to try again.&nbsp; Then you keep trying until you &quot;win&quot; or you stop playing.If we are going to define the game more broadly and instead say &quot;the game is about whatever actions the PCs take for the rest of their lives&quot; and isn't ABOUT the Tomb of Horrors, then we have the same problem.&nbsp; What counts as winning?&nbsp; What counts as losing?&nbsp; If the PCs fail to stop the Orc lord from destroying the town, did they lose?&nbsp; Or is that just one minor setback in a story that will have them rebuilding the town later?I'd argue that in D&amp;D there ARE only two options: Playing the game or not playing the game.&nbsp; Winning and losing don't even factor into it.&nbsp; It's a lot like life.The only real difference is that you are dealing with life or death situations the vast majority of the time in D&amp;D and death ends the game the same way it does in real life.&nbsp; So if continuing to survive counts as winning, then as long as the game continues, you are winning.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 6233742, member: 5143"] I still maintain that the mechanics have always supported this. Try running through the original Tomb of Horrors in 1e. There are only two ways the game goes: You get to the end of the dungeon and "win" or you all die and stop playing the game. I suppose there's a third option where you all die and roll up new characters to try again. Then you keep trying until you "win" or you stop playing. If we are going to define the game more broadly and instead say "the game is about whatever actions the PCs take for the rest of their lives" and isn't ABOUT the Tomb of Horrors, then we have the same problem. What counts as winning? What counts as losing? If the PCs fail to stop the Orc lord from destroying the town, did they lose? Or is that just one minor setback in a story that will have them rebuilding the town later? I'd argue that in D&D there ARE only two options: Playing the game or not playing the game. Winning and losing don't even factor into it. It's a lot like life. The only real difference is that you are dealing with life or death situations the vast majority of the time in D&D and death ends the game the same way it does in real life. So if continuing to survive counts as winning, then as long as the game continues, you are winning. [/QUOTE]

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