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L&L December 16th Can you feel it?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tom Strickland" data-source="post: 6233883" data-attributes="member: 6753119"><p>Three categories of things regarding one conception of rogues that are important to me that I wanted to emphasize apart from all of the thought-provoking discourse to this point:</p><p></p><p> </p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Rogues should be supreme at gathering intel, finding tactical advantages prior to combat due to location (chokepoints, deadfalls, etc.), and perhaps providing sniper support. They also have numerous skills and can mitigate surprise from unnoticed supporting or new enemies coming at an engaged party unawares because the rogue/scout has usually-the-highest spot and listen ranks. They can position themselves stealthily beforehand where they might be inaccessible to the foes once combat erupts. They might instead be nimble bait which leads pursuing enemies into a fortified or advantageous position where other party members wait. And the rogue is first-person/directly controlled unlike summoned, followers and other means of gathering intel. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The 3.xE rogues (at a minimum) have "Use Magic Device" which is an option/path to gain magic advantage in stealth/travel and also combat (attack and defense)--including against enemies they cannot sneak attack. They emulate all manner of classes and trick items to operate for them. They can basically do many things that any magic-using class can do via class-specific, creature/alignment/other restrictive items and yet (for fun/challenge) there is the ever-present chance of failure or worse. This is a very interesting class feature that I have rarely seen players leverage fully. [Note that use of triggered items (wands, staves) does not cause attacks of opportunity in combat as when using potions.] </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">I like ninja combat prowess in movies, books, and RPG's as much as the next fan. There are alternate/3rdParty/custom feats, PrC's and other options to do more than d6, to do extra damage to certain classes of normally-immune-to-sneak damage creatures (plants, constructs, undead, etc.) and so on. I always liked the Oriental Adventures Iaijutsu master where striking flatfooted opponents could add several d6's that were not sneak attacks--and rogues have several advantages that support attacking flat-footed opponents (and then fading away). The point of this whole description being that there are several well-designed options to configure a stealthy archetype to be more combat-oriented/effective, but you must plan, build, and trade-off. [One player in my current campaign runs a psychic rogue, and his combat is a spring-attack, running-along-walls style. Another player previously played an acrobatic combat-effective rogue with his adamantine (very rare in my campaign) sword of wounding--he didn't mind slicing into golems and such.] </li> </ol><p></p><p>Post Scriptum: All of the above is aside from the massive skills outlay which can provide other-than-combat advantage to the individual and the party overall such as better prices on items, the inside scoop on local events, all manner of knowledge-based skill checks, and so on.</p><p></p><p>===================</p><p>Update: Also, as a character that usually has the minimum INT requirements and a higher DEX score, the rogue can choose standard and 3rdParty feats that allow for an elusive, counter-attacking/opportunistic barrage, which is very effective against sneak-attack-immune creatures, and absolutely devastating in a flanking position against those that are subject to such--because every strike when flanking counts unlike coming out of stealth or invis. [Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Combat Instincts, Karmic Strike, etc.] And a high DEX provides advantages to both defense AND offense during melee (aside from ranged) when using Weapon Finesse (and dual-wielding!). How about anesthetizing (or worse) poison use [and the Book of Exalted Deeds presented poisons (ravages and afflictions) that affect evil (despite some immunities)]. The possibilities are rich and varied!</p><p></p><p>In a recent session, a rogue had clung to the wall away from a ferocious combat against several displacer beasts, and at an opportune moment, jumped/tumbled from a good height, landed balanced (with only minor subdual dmg), quick-drew and struck from a flanking position, instantly felling a beast that had almost downed the wizard. It was cinematic and contributory to the overall sense of achievement.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tom Strickland, post: 6233883, member: 6753119"] Three categories of things regarding one conception of rogues that are important to me that I wanted to emphasize apart from all of the thought-provoking discourse to this point: [LIST=1] [*]Rogues should be supreme at gathering intel, finding tactical advantages prior to combat due to location (chokepoints, deadfalls, etc.), and perhaps providing sniper support. They also have numerous skills and can mitigate surprise from unnoticed supporting or new enemies coming at an engaged party unawares because the rogue/scout has usually-the-highest spot and listen ranks. They can position themselves stealthily beforehand where they might be inaccessible to the foes once combat erupts. They might instead be nimble bait which leads pursuing enemies into a fortified or advantageous position where other party members wait. And the rogue is first-person/directly controlled unlike summoned, followers and other means of gathering intel. [*]The 3.xE rogues (at a minimum) have "Use Magic Device" which is an option/path to gain magic advantage in stealth/travel and also combat (attack and defense)--including against enemies they cannot sneak attack. They emulate all manner of classes and trick items to operate for them. They can basically do many things that any magic-using class can do via class-specific, creature/alignment/other restrictive items and yet (for fun/challenge) there is the ever-present chance of failure or worse. This is a very interesting class feature that I have rarely seen players leverage fully. [Note that use of triggered items (wands, staves) does not cause attacks of opportunity in combat as when using potions.] [*]I like ninja combat prowess in movies, books, and RPG's as much as the next fan. There are alternate/3rdParty/custom feats, PrC's and other options to do more than d6, to do extra damage to certain classes of normally-immune-to-sneak damage creatures (plants, constructs, undead, etc.) and so on. I always liked the Oriental Adventures Iaijutsu master where striking flatfooted opponents could add several d6's that were not sneak attacks--and rogues have several advantages that support attacking flat-footed opponents (and then fading away). The point of this whole description being that there are several well-designed options to configure a stealthy archetype to be more combat-oriented/effective, but you must plan, build, and trade-off. [One player in my current campaign runs a psychic rogue, and his combat is a spring-attack, running-along-walls style. Another player previously played an acrobatic combat-effective rogue with his adamantine (very rare in my campaign) sword of wounding--he didn't mind slicing into golems and such.] [/LIST] Post Scriptum: All of the above is aside from the massive skills outlay which can provide other-than-combat advantage to the individual and the party overall such as better prices on items, the inside scoop on local events, all manner of knowledge-based skill checks, and so on. =================== Update: Also, as a character that usually has the minimum INT requirements and a higher DEX score, the rogue can choose standard and 3rdParty feats that allow for an elusive, counter-attacking/opportunistic barrage, which is very effective against sneak-attack-immune creatures, and absolutely devastating in a flanking position against those that are subject to such--because every strike when flanking counts unlike coming out of stealth or invis. [Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Combat Instincts, Karmic Strike, etc.] And a high DEX provides advantages to both defense AND offense during melee (aside from ranged) when using Weapon Finesse (and dual-wielding!). How about anesthetizing (or worse) poison use [and the Book of Exalted Deeds presented poisons (ravages and afflictions) that affect evil (despite some immunities)]. The possibilities are rich and varied! In a recent session, a rogue had clung to the wall away from a ferocious combat against several displacer beasts, and at an opportune moment, jumped/tumbled from a good height, landed balanced (with only minor subdual dmg), quick-drew and struck from a flanking position, instantly felling a beast that had almost downed the wizard. It was cinematic and contributory to the overall sense of achievement. [/QUOTE]
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