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L&L December 16th Can you feel it?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sage Genesis" data-source="post: 6233961" data-attributes="member: 6706099"><p>I'd like to expand a little on this.</p><p></p><p>Rogues (or Thieves if you prefer) are sometimes called the "skill monkey" class. This is wrong. They are not skill monkeys. A "skill" in D&D/RPG context is a trained ability that can be learned by anyone. What Rogues actually used to have were unique class features. Find/Remove Traps wasn't a skill anybody could pick up, it was a Thief-only ability. Anybody can hide in darkness, but only the Thief could hide in <em>shadows</em>.</p><p></p><p>If you look at 2e, the Rogue classes actually get the least amount of non-weapon proficiency slots of all, not the most.</p><p></p><p>But then 3e came along and a universal skill system was put in place that included the traditional Rogue abilities. Anybody can now learn to pick pockets, open locks, and so on. The Rogues had eight skill points per level, sure, but that doesn't really cover all bases. There are <em>far/i] more than eight good skills you need to be a kickass thief. And who needs a specialist sneaky-guy class if the Ranger can do your job just as well? There is nothing that makes the Rogue better at sneaking than Rangers or Monks (again, unlike in 2e when the Thief was clearly better at this).</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>So what is the niche of the Rogue? It's not "unique Rogue abilities" any longer, those have been absorbed into a universal skill system. Is it "really good at skills" then? They were kind of decent at skills in 3e, but not so good at it that they could really fill a whole niche. In Iron Heroes the Thief class had a <em>ton</em> of skill points and had a cap of level+5 instead of level+3, something that game at least got very right.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Where does that leave you? Sneak attack. Yeah, you could limit it and take it almost entirely away, but then you're left with a class that really doesn't bring much to the table anymore. You're not the cool trap-foiling scout if any class can take the Guild Thief background and do your job just as well as you can. That's not a niche.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Fortunately, Next does do some positive things for Rogues in this regard (and I say this as someone who really, really doesn't like Next). Expertise gives back some of that skillfulness that they lost, cunning action gives mobility and sneak-ness in combat, Rogue Style can genuinely make you better at certain roguish skills than anybody else with the same background. I'd love to see the Rogue made even more skillful and tricky than they already are and their Sneak Attack toned down by a few d6, with perhaps a superior progression of sneak attack damage offered to a stabbing thug style option (in exchange for less tricks of another kind).</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Fighters and Barbarians have problem when facing incorporeal ghosts, golems, and sometimes flying enemies. Rogues have the exact same problems... and also all undead, plants, elementals, constructs, and slimes. There is nothing unreasonable about noticing and disliking this discrepancy. Nobody wants Rogues to be always good against everything. But when they face much more problems than any other martial class, that can be a legit issue. In AD&D this was better because Rogues had superior level progression and unique class abilities, but, well... I just went over that.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sage Genesis, post: 6233961, member: 6706099"] I'd like to expand a little on this. Rogues (or Thieves if you prefer) are sometimes called the "skill monkey" class. This is wrong. They are not skill monkeys. A "skill" in D&D/RPG context is a trained ability that can be learned by anyone. What Rogues actually used to have were unique class features. Find/Remove Traps wasn't a skill anybody could pick up, it was a Thief-only ability. Anybody can hide in darkness, but only the Thief could hide in [i]shadows[/i]. If you look at 2e, the Rogue classes actually get the least amount of non-weapon proficiency slots of all, not the most. But then 3e came along and a universal skill system was put in place that included the traditional Rogue abilities. Anybody can now learn to pick pockets, open locks, and so on. The Rogues had eight skill points per level, sure, but that doesn't really cover all bases. There are [i]far/i] more than eight good skills you need to be a kickass thief. And who needs a specialist sneaky-guy class if the Ranger can do your job just as well? There is nothing that makes the Rogue better at sneaking than Rangers or Monks (again, unlike in 2e when the Thief was clearly better at this). So what is the niche of the Rogue? It's not "unique Rogue abilities" any longer, those have been absorbed into a universal skill system. Is it "really good at skills" then? They were kind of decent at skills in 3e, but not so good at it that they could really fill a whole niche. In Iron Heroes the Thief class had a [i]ton[/i] of skill points and had a cap of level+5 instead of level+3, something that game at least got very right. Where does that leave you? Sneak attack. Yeah, you could limit it and take it almost entirely away, but then you're left with a class that really doesn't bring much to the table anymore. You're not the cool trap-foiling scout if any class can take the Guild Thief background and do your job just as well as you can. That's not a niche. Fortunately, Next does do some positive things for Rogues in this regard (and I say this as someone who really, really doesn't like Next). Expertise gives back some of that skillfulness that they lost, cunning action gives mobility and sneak-ness in combat, Rogue Style can genuinely make you better at certain roguish skills than anybody else with the same background. I'd love to see the Rogue made even more skillful and tricky than they already are and their Sneak Attack toned down by a few d6, with perhaps a superior progression of sneak attack damage offered to a stabbing thug style option (in exchange for less tricks of another kind). Fighters and Barbarians have problem when facing incorporeal ghosts, golems, and sometimes flying enemies. Rogues have the exact same problems... and also all undead, plants, elementals, constructs, and slimes. There is nothing unreasonable about noticing and disliking this discrepancy. Nobody wants Rogues to be always good against everything. But when they face much more problems than any other martial class, that can be a legit issue. In AD&D this was better because Rogues had superior level progression and unique class abilities, but, well... I just went over that.[/i] [/QUOTE]
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