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L&L December 16th Can you feel it?
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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 6240018" data-attributes="member: 5143"><p>This does happen sometimes. I agree, it is one reason that MMOs had to give the Rogue a combat focus. Because in an MMO there are no non-combat aspects of the game, per se. As a party, you all need to contribute to a fight, because if you don't, then you aren't needed.</p><p></p><p>Then again, I can speak from experience when I say that the exact same problem existed in D&D depending on the content of the adventure. Unless you went out of your way to make the adventure have non-combat aspects that involved the Rogue, then they didn't get anymore spotlight time than anyone else.</p><p></p><p>So, in many people's games the non-combat Thief was already an issue. In our group it was, no one would play a single classed Thief on purpose in 2e. MMOs just discovered that everyone had a combat role except the Thief. So when battle started everyone has something to do except the Thief.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Here's the problem: Let me go over a series of adventures I've played.</p><p></p><p>1) Demon kidnaps us all and sends us to the Nine Hells in a labyrinth he specifically designed to test us filled with traps and monsters. The Thief was useful for disarming and finding the traps...and that was it.</p><p></p><p>2) We need to find an ancient artifact that was hidden away by a powerful wizard hundreds of years ago. We found a clue to opening the dungeon in a previous adventure and go in. Inside are: a bunch of mindless undead intent on killing us, an ooze who wants to devour us, and a summoned elemental conjured to protect the treasure. The Rogue was useful for...well, nothing. There were no traps for him to disarm, no one to steal from. The undead had lifesense and couldn't be tricked by sneaking past them. The ooze had tremorsense. The elemental was summoned magically when someone stepped anywhere in the room. This adventure took 5 hours. It would be 5 hours of really boring play for a Rogue without combat ability(Which it was. It got the player so frustrated that he retired his character and came back as a Druid).</p><p></p><p>3) The church asked us to recover some artifacts from a thousand years ago that were recently unearthed by some explorers. All of them ended up dead except one who ended up insane. We went into a tunnel filled with evil trappings of a dark god. Inside we find a bunch of creatures who have taken up residence in the tunnels, they attack us. We find some clues about what the caves were used for and eventually find the artifacts we're looking for an head back. Along the way, we find out that a bunch of Orcs have attacked and plundered the town we came though on the way in. We decide to track down the Orcs. We find their camp. The Rogue sneaks in and tells us how many of them there are. We then attack their camp in an epic battle that lasts nearly 4 hours. This entire series of events: roleplaying the getting the party together, going into the cave, finding the items and saving the kidnapped townspeople takes 4 5-hour long sessions. During this time the only "special" thing the Rogue has done was scout the Orc camp for about 30 seconds and searched for and found a couple of traps.</p><p></p><p>4) A mysterious benefactor asked us to go to a mysterious manor house and bring him back an item that we'd know when we saw it. As we approached it, a strange mist started appearing it and out of it came monsters. We fought them off and made it to the house. It appears as if some dark force has taken residence there are ghosts keep taunting us. Also 4 hags appear to live there and have been kidnapping people. We had to fight and kill them. They(or someone) also seems to have a Chimera chained in the courtyard that tried to kill us. I'm currently playing the Rogue and I haven't used a single Rogue skill since the adventure started. I have been fighting like crazy, however. Luckily, I'm playing a D&D Next Rogue whose actually good at fighting.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 6240018, member: 5143"] This does happen sometimes. I agree, it is one reason that MMOs had to give the Rogue a combat focus. Because in an MMO there are no non-combat aspects of the game, per se. As a party, you all need to contribute to a fight, because if you don't, then you aren't needed. Then again, I can speak from experience when I say that the exact same problem existed in D&D depending on the content of the adventure. Unless you went out of your way to make the adventure have non-combat aspects that involved the Rogue, then they didn't get anymore spotlight time than anyone else. So, in many people's games the non-combat Thief was already an issue. In our group it was, no one would play a single classed Thief on purpose in 2e. MMOs just discovered that everyone had a combat role except the Thief. So when battle started everyone has something to do except the Thief. Here's the problem: Let me go over a series of adventures I've played. 1) Demon kidnaps us all and sends us to the Nine Hells in a labyrinth he specifically designed to test us filled with traps and monsters. The Thief was useful for disarming and finding the traps...and that was it. 2) We need to find an ancient artifact that was hidden away by a powerful wizard hundreds of years ago. We found a clue to opening the dungeon in a previous adventure and go in. Inside are: a bunch of mindless undead intent on killing us, an ooze who wants to devour us, and a summoned elemental conjured to protect the treasure. The Rogue was useful for...well, nothing. There were no traps for him to disarm, no one to steal from. The undead had lifesense and couldn't be tricked by sneaking past them. The ooze had tremorsense. The elemental was summoned magically when someone stepped anywhere in the room. This adventure took 5 hours. It would be 5 hours of really boring play for a Rogue without combat ability(Which it was. It got the player so frustrated that he retired his character and came back as a Druid). 3) The church asked us to recover some artifacts from a thousand years ago that were recently unearthed by some explorers. All of them ended up dead except one who ended up insane. We went into a tunnel filled with evil trappings of a dark god. Inside we find a bunch of creatures who have taken up residence in the tunnels, they attack us. We find some clues about what the caves were used for and eventually find the artifacts we're looking for an head back. Along the way, we find out that a bunch of Orcs have attacked and plundered the town we came though on the way in. We decide to track down the Orcs. We find their camp. The Rogue sneaks in and tells us how many of them there are. We then attack their camp in an epic battle that lasts nearly 4 hours. This entire series of events: roleplaying the getting the party together, going into the cave, finding the items and saving the kidnapped townspeople takes 4 5-hour long sessions. During this time the only "special" thing the Rogue has done was scout the Orc camp for about 30 seconds and searched for and found a couple of traps. 4) A mysterious benefactor asked us to go to a mysterious manor house and bring him back an item that we'd know when we saw it. As we approached it, a strange mist started appearing it and out of it came monsters. We fought them off and made it to the house. It appears as if some dark force has taken residence there are ghosts keep taunting us. Also 4 hags appear to live there and have been kidnapping people. We had to fight and kill them. They(or someone) also seems to have a Chimera chained in the courtyard that tried to kill us. I'm currently playing the Rogue and I haven't used a single Rogue skill since the adventure started. I have been fighting like crazy, however. Luckily, I'm playing a D&D Next Rogue whose actually good at fighting. [/QUOTE]
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