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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5929712" data-attributes="member: 54877">Springboarding off of this comment ... Part of the problem in the constrast between versions is that there are borders where "following" or "not following" have somewhat different meanings, and these borders shift across versons. Furthermore, in early D&D, the borders themselves are frequently obscured by the rules and the tendency of many players to learn the rules in play from a DM who may not be entirely following them. Take something like the new version d20 + mod vs DC, potentially with or without advantage or disadvantage. The roll and formula is same as it has been for a long time. If the DM tells you to use 2d10 for the roll, that's flat changing the rules. If the rules told the DM to merely use whatever dice he felt like, that would be kind of odd (though even that could have its place as in your AD&D secret door check example). Likewise, the DM shouldn't be suddenly deciding that your +3 Str mod doesn't count to knock open a stuck door when asking for a Str check. And so on, being fairly consistent with the application of DCs and advantage/disadvantage. Moreover, if advantage or disadvantage is applied, it has a set meaning. OTOH, we have the DM being instructed to sometimes not require a roll--or not allow one on an impossible task. If the roll is allowed, the DM may require a non-standard ability score to be used in the mod. The DM can apply situational mods and/or tweak the DC. The DM can decide to apply advantage or disadvantage, or not.  Even in the playtest, they have done a fairly decent job of suggesting where those borders are in this version. You can make the fighter use Wis or Cha mod instead of Str mod, apply disadvantage, and take more time to open some wacky magically stuck door that is all about strength of will. If you do that, the fighter gets his full Wis or Cha mod, and a success on both d20 rolls should open it.  Mathematically, that may be the same as docking your Str mod a bit and applying another modifier, but in the game it is very different.  This clarity is entirely counter to the sometimes used method of "roll, and then I'll decide what happens that is most dramatic, fair, etc." Illusionism isn't the only reason to keep the players out of the rules, but keeping players out of the rules is important to the illusionism agenda. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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