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L&L: The Challenges of High Level Play
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5829296" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I don't have time or inclination for a long post at this time, however count me among those that agree D&D has always broke beyond a certain level.</p><p></p><p>1e: Breaks between 9th and 15th level depending on the rules in force and the availability of items because not enough support was provided for high level play. Monsters don't have attributes, and therefore no attribute bonuses, even unique monsters rarely have more than 200 hit points, and the 'to hit' table for monsters caps at 16HD making players with good AC virtually immune to normal attacks from even the toughest things in the game. The things available to challenge players are extremely limited in scope and the DM is forced to invent new challenges. Particularly post Unearthed Arcana, parties can dish out enough damage per round that the initiative roll has to be considered midcombat. Zeus doesn't have enough hit points to survive more than a round or two toe to toe versus a capable high level party, resulting in a situation where even greater gods have to resort to uninteresting 'I win' buttons to represent a challenge. Finding groups of young players where the Deities and Demigods book is treated like a monster manual is not uncommon, simply because the DM has tried (and failed) to challenge the group by having them fight gods toe to toe with straight forward tactics. On the good side, problem can be addressed by the DM, spellcasters don't inherently outshine fighters, and direct damage spells are powerful enough that the DM probably won't have to deal with extra bookkeeping from arcane buffs, summoning, and so forth. In practice, high level play often bogs down into truly massive combats with the DM rolling 30-50 'to hit' rolls from the horde of foes he is forced to throw at high level characters - and this is reinforced as normal by typical module design of the era (Tomb of Horrors and a few others being notable exceptions). High level play is possible, it just requires additional DM imagination and creativity.</p><p></p><p>2e: Basically the same problem as 1e, but the problem is addressed somewhat by expanding the official upper bounds on monster power, particularly dragons.</p><p></p><p>3e: On the good side, addresses the problem of there not being enough support for challenging high level parties and allows for amazing degrees of character customization at high levels. On the bad side, still breaks in a wide variaty of ways at or above 12th level (at the latest). Spellcasters are much more formidable in 3e (being allowed to cast spells in combat, having more spells, and having fewer spell nerfs to deal with) and completely outshine fighters in every way once the 5th and 6th level spells arrive. Direct damage was nerfed, but buffs and summoning are empowered, resulting in much more spell bookkeeping. 3.5 just made the problem worse. Unlike 1e, where the odds of passing 'save or die' increased with level, in 3e the odds arguably decrease at exactly the same point 'save or die' or 'save or suck' becomes common, resulting in too many 'I win' buttons. Massive numbers of fiddly modifiers causes combat in all but the most organized and disciplined groups to grind to a halt, and several strategies may be avoided as 'unfun' simply because of the massive calculations they involve.</p><p></p><p>4e: Addresses almost all the problems of 3e high level play, but still manages to break around 20th level because the math is wrong the opposite way. High level play still bogs down and becomes a tedious slog in most cases because of the vast number of ever changing buffs and debuffs. Combat manages to become an unfulfilling grind, because high level monsters don't do enough damage to really threaten high level characters, but have enough hit points to absorb most of the players options, leaving the characters to 'mop up' using at wills. On the good side, the problems can mostly be addressed by manually fixing the math, and some official attempts at correcting the problem exist as errata.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5829296, member: 4937"] I don't have time or inclination for a long post at this time, however count me among those that agree D&D has always broke beyond a certain level. 1e: Breaks between 9th and 15th level depending on the rules in force and the availability of items because not enough support was provided for high level play. Monsters don't have attributes, and therefore no attribute bonuses, even unique monsters rarely have more than 200 hit points, and the 'to hit' table for monsters caps at 16HD making players with good AC virtually immune to normal attacks from even the toughest things in the game. The things available to challenge players are extremely limited in scope and the DM is forced to invent new challenges. Particularly post Unearthed Arcana, parties can dish out enough damage per round that the initiative roll has to be considered midcombat. Zeus doesn't have enough hit points to survive more than a round or two toe to toe versus a capable high level party, resulting in a situation where even greater gods have to resort to uninteresting 'I win' buttons to represent a challenge. Finding groups of young players where the Deities and Demigods book is treated like a monster manual is not uncommon, simply because the DM has tried (and failed) to challenge the group by having them fight gods toe to toe with straight forward tactics. On the good side, problem can be addressed by the DM, spellcasters don't inherently outshine fighters, and direct damage spells are powerful enough that the DM probably won't have to deal with extra bookkeeping from arcane buffs, summoning, and so forth. In practice, high level play often bogs down into truly massive combats with the DM rolling 30-50 'to hit' rolls from the horde of foes he is forced to throw at high level characters - and this is reinforced as normal by typical module design of the era (Tomb of Horrors and a few others being notable exceptions). High level play is possible, it just requires additional DM imagination and creativity. 2e: Basically the same problem as 1e, but the problem is addressed somewhat by expanding the official upper bounds on monster power, particularly dragons. 3e: On the good side, addresses the problem of there not being enough support for challenging high level parties and allows for amazing degrees of character customization at high levels. On the bad side, still breaks in a wide variaty of ways at or above 12th level (at the latest). Spellcasters are much more formidable in 3e (being allowed to cast spells in combat, having more spells, and having fewer spell nerfs to deal with) and completely outshine fighters in every way once the 5th and 6th level spells arrive. Direct damage was nerfed, but buffs and summoning are empowered, resulting in much more spell bookkeeping. 3.5 just made the problem worse. Unlike 1e, where the odds of passing 'save or die' increased with level, in 3e the odds arguably decrease at exactly the same point 'save or die' or 'save or suck' becomes common, resulting in too many 'I win' buttons. Massive numbers of fiddly modifiers causes combat in all but the most organized and disciplined groups to grind to a halt, and several strategies may be avoided as 'unfun' simply because of the massive calculations they involve. 4e: Addresses almost all the problems of 3e high level play, but still manages to break around 20th level because the math is wrong the opposite way. High level play still bogs down and becomes a tedious slog in most cases because of the vast number of ever changing buffs and debuffs. Combat manages to become an unfulfilling grind, because high level monsters don't do enough damage to really threaten high level characters, but have enough hit points to absorb most of the players options, leaving the characters to 'mop up' using at wills. On the good side, the problems can mostly be addressed by manually fixing the math, and some official attempts at correcting the problem exist as errata. [/QUOTE]
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