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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5847857" data-attributes="member: 2067">I see turn undead as one domain's "granted power" (perhaps the Life domain, which the default cleric, as a major healer, uses by default). Other domains might "turn" or control other classes of creatures (a Moon domain being able to affect lycanthropes; an Order domain affecting demons; a Freedom domain affecting devils; a Fire domain affecting cold-based creatures, etc.). Other domains might get other abilities instead of a "turn" option (a Light domain cleric might get a little mini-nuke of radiant light instead of a turn option).Under this rubrick, you might see Turn Undead as something like a 4e-style encounter power that comes as a class feature. Something you can swap out for other options. I grok that's not exactly iconic, but as long as we can also have folks with the iconic cleric, that's cool. So it doesn't make a lot of sense for me to hard-code my turn undead into a monster's stat block -- the party might not even HAVE a cleric, let alone one with a special interest in undead. It works in Mike's home campaign, and "it's a good house rule" in that he can then just make a rule for each undead creature he introduces. It wouldn't make a good general D&D rule, because making every undead creature have a niche special rule for a niche class that may or may not be in play is kind of an absurd amount of catering to this one fiddly little mechanic. Given that I'd want turn undead to be one option among many, we need a power that contains its own rules and resolutions, rather than one with endless cascading effects throughout the entire system. It would be sort of like having every monster have a special reaction when it is hit with fire damage, or when it is hit with a hammer instead of with a sword. It's not a good option.BUT, I do want the cleric to be able to have that "turning" effect, not just damage. I want the cleric to be able to disable an undead enemy, make them cower or flee. This doesn't have to mean my mastermind vampire needs to run away crying if the cleric hits a 20 on his turn roll. This brings us back to the "Save-or-Die" point again, though: the turn undead roll is something of a narrow Save Or Die effect. Like any of them, it is probably able to be compared more directly by translating "Die" into "enough damage to kill a creature." So what do we have if we want a turn undead that actually turns, but doesn't suddenly make undead a non-issue? Well, if we use 4e as a launching point, we have the cleric using a standard action to make a close burst 2 or 3 zone centered on them that (a) rolls, say, 4*(level+3) for an HP threshold (this is half the amount needed to kill an enemy in one blow -- you could tweak it), (b) makes any undead in the area under that threshold flee out of it, and (c) deals that damage to any undead creature that violates the threshold. I would want it to be sustainable -- perhaps a minor or a move action to keep the zone up, protecting your allies. This includes all of Mearls's main effects -- zombies and skeletons flee (out to the limit of the zone, anyway, and given that they're mindless...), ghouls outside the zone can still use their cunning to use ranged attacks (or roll boulders down onto them), and ghosts who are in the zone are pushed out -- but the people they are possessing are not. It also lets solo-level vampire masterminds and mummies and the like remain a threat -- they can choose to just TAKE the damage, and go after the cleric and his buddies anyway.One weird thing about the turn attempt as Mearls presents it is that he makes it a cone...to me, the idea of an area around the cleric makes a lot more sense than a blast out from the cleric. Though maybe it is a cone by default in BEMCI?</blockquote>

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