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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 5848141" data-attributes="member: 7006">Another issue with Turn Undead is that there's a pretty good chance during the design process of monsters that what you get out of using it just doesn't really match up favorably against the party out-and-out trying to destroy them all conventionally.Usually the use of Turn Undead was because it was the best (or only) way to deal with them because the undead were either so much more powerful than the party, or their swarm numbers were so huge... that the party couldn't really hope to deal with them conventionally.But with the advent of 4E's balanced encounter design and "minion" rules... neither of those cases really come up anymore.All undead creatures in 4E now have several different versions available, all at differing levels.  So with the DM building an encounter with one or more powerful undead... the need, urge, or desire to use one so powerful that Turning it is actually a better use of time and energy than just all-out attacking it, is lessened.  If the party is 3rd level, and the Monster Manual has five different wraith builds at levels 5, 6, 7, & 9... the DM will probably just choose one that falls within the encounter level that a party of 5 would be able to deal with in some fashion.And as far as "outnumbered swarms of undead"... most of them time nowadays the DM does it using lots and lots of minions.  Which means that needing to "turn" them in the classic sense (i.e. make them flee or hold them at bay, but NOT actually doing damage to them) is also no longer a necessity.  Because dealing 1 point of damage to each minion through conventional party tactics is just as easy, and actually a better long-term solution, than making them run away.The simple fact of the matter is that for a Turn Undead ability (that isn't simply just a "nuke" spell of a certain amount of damage) to be a better option than just the party of 5 just attacking the creatures conventionally... it has to be a better and more powerful choice than what that party of 5 can do conventionally.  And there's the problem.  If it isn't more powerful, than just attacking it and getting rid of the threat altogether is the better option... and if it is, then you are basically giving a single class an ability that is more overpowered than the combined might of 5 characters.And neither of those options are very good in my opinion.</blockquote>

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