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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Runestar" data-source="post: 4747365" data-attributes="member: 72317">It actually depends. If we assume that wotc already took this into account, then it should all even out. For example, if we look at the half-ogre from races of destiny and ogre from MM, both are LA+2, but the ogre gets superior stats because he also has the baggage of 4 crappy giant HD (which would have been 4 extra class lvs for the half-ogre). Whether crappy giant HD + slightly better physical stats is better or worse than 4 actual class lvs is another issue though.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />But once again, wotc seems quite inconsistent in applying this. Compare the goliath to the gnoll. Both are comparable, yet both are the same LA+1, and the gnoll still has the drawback of 2 crummy humanoid HD. In theory at least, it is possible to "buy off" racial HD, by finding a way to permanently lv-drain yourself and voluntarily failing the fort save 24 hours day (how feasible it is however....). You lose your racial HD, and your ECL would lower as a result. This results in more xp (using the DMG 3.5 xp progression rules), so you should eventually catch up. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" />One interesting thing I noticed is that LA templates seem much more appealing in epic, because of the epic bab progression rules. Take the half-celestial template for example. Prior to lv20, that LA+4 means a potential +4bab lost from the 4 fewer class lvs I could otherwise have. But now compare a half-celestial fighter20 to a fighter24. Bab+20 vs Bab+22, meaning the disparity is just +2bab (much smaller), so the opportunity cost is lower. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />You will generally want to avoid any "dead end" monster races that do not mesh well with class lvs at all, like the ogre mage or succubus. They may have fun abilities, but after you have finished the progression, class lvs don't really augment their core competencies much. So you are effectively starting from from scratch. Never a wise thing to do at lv13+.Monsters with huge ECLs are not necessarily unplayable, but you will have to decide this for yourself on a case by case basis. If said monster's ECl was a fairly accurate indicator of its overall usefulness in a party, and the savage progression broke it down properly, it should still make for a decent PC. There is also the problem of monster HD being very stingy when it comes to skill points (most tend to give only 2+int mod skill points, and have very lousy skill lists). So if you want to play a roguish PC, you might want to stick to a race without racial HD, so you can get the benefits of your 1st lv of rogue (much more skill points). Or at least, think of adding HD/LA after you have taken class lvs (such as the lycanthrope template). Basically, you will want to first determine what role the monster can play, and what role you want it to fill in. Then (assuming your campaign extends well beyond its ECL) check that you can continue to make a viable character build with it by tacking on class lvs.  For example, an ogre could still make a decent fighter past ECL6 (1 lv of fighter gives it heavy armour prof, mitigating its otherwise poor AC, while barb nets it rage). I think a dragon PC (using the progression tables from dragon320 and 332) could still be viable. I haven't exactly tried one, but looking at what they get, it appears they should still be fairly strong at low lvs, maybe a tad lackluster at mid lvs, before picking up again at higher lvs.Played carefully, a ghaele makes for a fairly strong PC as well. Granted, its usefulness dropped somewhat once we discovered the wonders of wands of CLW/vigor...<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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