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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Notmousse" data-source="post: 3195492" data-attributes="member: 39739">You do have a point- If one takes a feat that one no longer satifies the pre-req for, it cannot be used. Guess the PC better reselect feats they qualify for. I'll make that a specification of the houserule- PC's must reselect feats if the stat trade-in makes them ineligible for feats.But these are not player picked feats in the case I'm presenting.  They're inherited by taking the template.  They're an intergral part of the monster.'Dex 13 is not hard to achieve even under a limited point buy for base stats before racial mods. The extra durability and base saves makes up for the stat loss easily. And one could just pick another feat.'Again, this is not a feat taken by the character, but on inherited by the template.  I can easily see builds where Dex tops out at 12 since it wouldn't be useful for heavy armor builds (and depending one which rules you're using 'Extreme armor' builds).'Yes, that is certainly the point of the LA- I feel there may be a better way that doesnt leave a PC/villain with extremely anemic HP/BAB/Saves and skills compared to a regular PC of the same ECL, while leaving them with the special abilities and properties they were designed with.'The only cases where a (N)PC would be 'extremely anemic' are high LA cases like the vampire which are alleviated by more than gengerous helpings of powers.  In the presented case Fast Healing 5 among them!'Heres a fun example:'Interesting that you decided to give your gargoyle a greatsword, a notoriously high damage weapon, and a level of fighter to wield it.  Then there was the botch in BAB in the favor of your altered gargoyle.  And of course you're doing this with Gargoyles that have a natural 1 BAB progression instead of the 1/2 BAB progression of the Vampire I used in example.  Now let's try this with their natural attacks.Normal ECL 9 Gargoyle(4HD + 5LA) vs AC 20 targetAssumed Str 14 (10 base, +4 racial)Natural Attack damage= Claw*2 1d4+2, Bite 1d6+1, Gore 1d6+1 damage (average 4.5*2, 4.5*2 = 18)Natural Attack to-hit= 6/4 (4 BAB, 2 STR) (25% average chance to hit AC 20, 15 or higher)Average damage over 5 rounds= 1.25*18=22.5Altered ECL 9 Gargoyle (9HD) vs AC 20Assumed Str 12 (10 base, +2 racial)Natural Attack damage= Claw*2 1d4+1, Bite 1d6, Gore 1d6 damage (average 3.5*2, 3.5*2 = 14)Natural Attack to-hit= 10/8 (9 BAB, 1 STR) (45% average chance to hit AC 20, 11 or higher)Average damage over 5 rounds= 2.25*14=31.5A difference of 9 points of damage, not 16 as in your model.  Lower, but still proves that trading HD for LA isn't a good idea.'The size of your ability mod isn't everything- it's how ya use it!'But aren't you using an ability to gain this damage advantage?  There were no special tactics, just you using a buffed stat (BAB in your case) to overpower another.  At which point doesn't this prove that you're buffing creatures further than normal?'Base saves are HD dependant- and whether on is epic is determined by ECL IIRC. I could be wrong though if LA doesn't count towards ECL for Epic- just seems a bit odd to make that exception. My system ends up with same ECL and higher base saves.'Good point.  Then it would be overbuffing a character for their HD wouldn't it?  All these HD benefits on top of massive powers.'Looks like I found a refinement I needed to make for the houserule, as apparently the Vampire template just had to go and be a special case. I'll have to specify that one does gain BAB/Save/skill points when converting LA to HD.'That was current HD, not future HD.  Your HD for any level changes to D12, so unless you're a barbarian (or Knight IIRC) your HD type changes, but not your saves, skills, etc...  If your HD retroactively changed to Undead HD you'd be royally screwed.'Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Vermin, and most Undead and Animals fall under this. Those HD are so sucky for those most part I might reduce the trade cost to 1 stat pt per HD. I can honestly say I have never seen a PC with a template that would convert there LA to Ooze HD however.'It was a hypothetical, though the Oozemaster I believe changes it's type to Ooze (thankfully no LA).  Either way the trade's not fair, and you'd need to change CR and LA on both to have even a remote possibility of reaching balance.</blockquote>

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