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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 4856482" data-attributes="member: 23619">I've got to say (again), that I disagree with any permenent or continuous XP/Level penalty for any race. Syl, you've already agreed that racial abilities become less valuable (in relation to the levels gained) over time. That right there means that the 'cost' for those abilities should decrease and, at some point, be paid off completely. Because of this, I cannot agree with or support your idea for a permanent penalty for any race. Temporary penalty, yes. That's what I've been pushing. But definitely not a permanent one and not a permanent one in conjunction with a temporary one. If you don't like my idea for generating a temporary penalty for LA creatures, I'll work with you on different ways to come up with something, but I'm not going to put my efforts into something I don't support. If you don't want to give Drow their abilities all at once, break down the powers they get that are different from PHB elves and assign a value to it. Have the character 'pay' that value in XP before they advance a level, and they can only get one of these per level.Like so:Darkvision 120'. This I would give at 1st since it is balanced by their vulnerability to lights. Leaving us with:**+2 to Will saves vs. Spells. 1,000xp**+2 to Will saves vs. Spell Like Abilities. 500xp**SR 11 + class level 3,000xp**Spell Like Abilities 500xp**+2 to Charisma 2,000xp**+2 to Intelligence. 2,000xpA typical drow might advance like:1st level: +2 Will vs. SLA--pay extra 500xp to get to 2nd level.2nd level: SLAs--pay extra 500xp to get to 3rd level.3rd level: +2 to Will vs. Spells--pay extra 1,000xp to get to 4th level.4th level: +2 Cha--pay extra 2,000xp to get to 5th level.5th level: +2 Int--pay extra 2,000xp tp get to 6th level.6th level: SR--pay extra 3,000xp to get to 7th level. So, they have paid an extra 9,000xp to get all their racial abilities and paid it off completely by 7th level. Because of the lower cost at the lower levels, they are still roughly the same level as any companions up until about 6th or 7th level where they will be one level lower (assuming everyone earns the same amount of XP). But by then, they are sufficiently powerful enough to still pull their own weight and by the time 20th level rolls around, they will be less than halfway there from 19th. Herzog, I gotta disagree with you on the Half Ogre thing.His net bonuses for his race are a +4 Str and +3 natural armor and darkvision. That's it. His Con bonus is negated by his Dex penalty, and his Int/Cha penalties offset his +6 Str by 2 points. Giant type is a bonus in some ways, and a penalty in others. This balances out.Large size is also not a complete bonus. Reach is nice, but that can be achieved with weapons or mitigated completely by ranged attacks. Size, like creature type, has benefits and drawbacks. So its not really an asset.Darkvision is a bit of a plus since Giants normally only get Low Light, but in and of itself is not worthy of a LA. Natural armor. This is a definite perk at lower levels and even nice at higher levels but at mid to high levels, its definitely not worth the loss of 2 or even one levels. And immediately, 1 point of this is mitigated by Half-Ogre's size!This leaves a net gain of Str +4, Nat Arm +3, and Darkvision. Nice assets, but they are fixed value and because they are fixed, their value will decrease as more levels are gained. These are even less useful than the Drow abilities and worth more of a +1LA than +2.A Half Ogre is a formidable melee-er, but far from unbeatable. Even as a fighter or barbarian, he's going to have 11 or 13 hp tops (counting an avg Con) at 1st level and he's going to be slower than average. Any ranged fighter or barbarian at 1st level is going to have even or better odds against him (he's slower, so less likely to have initiative and ranged attacks completely neutralize any advantage his strength gives). A halfling rogue or scout with rapid shot will make short work of a half-ogre barbarian while a dwarf will have a considerable advantage over the half-ogre--enjoying a net +5 bonus to AC against the half-ogre's attacks. Your half-ogre is powerful but only in one very specific area (melee combat). Other than that, the half-ogre is a liability in far more ways than he is an asset.</blockquote>

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