Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Labyrinths and Outlands
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Emberashh" data-source="post: 9088037" data-attributes="member: 7040941"><p>Gosh where do I even start?</p><p></p><p>Been some pretty substantial upheavals to say the least, so Ill just shoot em off willy nilly.</p><p></p><p>Name Change: Name is condensing down simply to Labyrinthian. I and others kept calling it Labyrinths and so I did the thing and embraced it mostly, going for the one word Labyrinthian to still be evocative. </p><p></p><p>The Class system is being pulled back...slightly, to make more logical sense in tandem with the Skill system. We'll still be having 30 levels worth of class content, but it will be split 2/3 base class (focusing on just a Primary and Secondary Ability Chain) and 1/3 Subclass. These will still be linear but will be more tightly focused and, best of all, easier to compress down for ease of use on a Character sheet. </p><p></p><p>The (Talent and) Skill System meanwhile is embracing a sort of hybrid of Oblivion's and Skyrims skill systems, but with my unique take on how Attributes relate to skills.</p><p></p><p>In a nutshell, your Talents (Attributes) are derived from the average of 4 Skills under it, and the resulting Talent Modifier (goes up to +30) not only factors into the 4 Energies, but also serve as your Skill mod. That part was already a change from earlier, but Talents now all contribute a number of different Passives and Abilities. </p><p></p><p>As an example, lets look at Charisma:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Done this way, Talents justify their use very, very much. </p><p></p><p>But the Skills themselves however are the really big change, though I suspected this was going to come sooner or later. </p><p></p><p>Essentially, each individual skill is going to have Perk Paths (more creative name pending) that you can choose to spend your Skill points on in lieu of an additional level in the Skill. As for what these Perk Paths will cover, Im intending to, if I can, have paths that will basically cover every "Pillar" in the game (Combat, Adventuring, Social, Crafting, Domains (!!!), Warfare), and will be treated essentially as chooseable Ability chains similar to those in Classes. </p><p></p><p>This change is going to be great not only because I think itll help appeal to a broader range of people (ie, people who like to build characters), but also add some more longevity to the game. </p><p></p><p>Not only will the need to spend for Perks help slow the overall leveling rate, but I believe it should also help keep the game going even beyond max level. </p><p></p><p>And as for why Im not just skipping Classes altogether? Because thats stupid. But also because it gives Players a means to lean into specific tropes more readily without having to construe a build first.</p><p></p><p>And also also because I just have way too many great class ideas to just, not do them justice as proper classes. Ive already covered most of the Martial ones and where they go, but have a look at the full list if you haven't seen it:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, I was initially apprehensive about leaning into Domain play, but like Warfare its something Ive managed to keep bumping up against. </p><p></p><p>But, it was also because I got and read Arora: Age of Desolation, which is a fascinating book for 5e, namely because I think this is the first time Ive read an RPG book and found myself just...<em>agreeing</em> so much with everything, up to and including my near verbatim thoughts on Integration in game design, which accounts for why so many wonderful modes of play seem so cut off from the modern gamer like Survival. </p><p></p><p>So, taking Aroras take on Domains (which actually aren't Domains in the traditional sense) as inspiration, alongside some rather critical directions from ACKS and OSE, Im going to be including this as a new pillar of play, accessible and integrated into the gameplay loop from level Zero.</p><p></p><p>Like the other Pillars of course, you won't have to engage with it if it doesn't fit the kind of game you want to go for, but I think if I accomplish what I want to do with it, I can't see people not wanting to go for it in general. </p><p></p><p>As for what it will look like, Ill provide a rough thesis:</p><p></p><p>With a game focused on getting out and Adventuring as the principle gameplay loop (whether its for Questing, to Gather and Craft, to Level up, to Loot, whatever), Parties will find themselves needing an essential "Hub" for their adventures, a place of respite that they can consistently return to even if already established Settlements are too far away to be reasonable. </p><p></p><p>Ergo, players will be able to establish Settlements in the wilderness; little more than glorified Camps initially, these can be grown through the attraction of settlers, the input of resources, and the careful and occasional intervention to defend against the troubles of making a home in the Outlands, from your crop failures to your Barbarian raids and even on up to Dragon and Giant attacks. </p><p></p><p>As these settlements begin to develop into true villages, and with careful cultivation od surrounding areas, even cities, the Players will be able to establish personalized Strongholds and Organizations corresponding to their class to govern them. A Warrior might build a Castle and his own personal retinue, but a Wizard might establish their own Tower and Dungeon. A Cleric a Church and Graveyard, or a Necromancer a Lair and Cult. And so on.</p><p></p><p>Each of these will not only build into the Domain play itself, but will also serve as extensions of the classes gameplay up to that point, transforming the Party into the Alliance.</p><p></p><p>The Alliance, basically, is just the Adventuring party writ grand in terms of scale, and will comprise not just of our Heroes themselves, but the armies and organizations they control. This is where the game can really shine at the level I want it to...the mythical Wars of LOTR lore will probably pail in comparison, to give an idea of my vision here. </p><p></p><p>But, as mentioned, Integration is key as is the choice to engage. At these levels you will still be able to get up to the same degree of hijinks and awesomeness even if you're disinterested in being something grander than just a really powerful Adventurer, but you'll also be able to seamlessly transfer between them. Going from fighting a War of Wrath to a personal duel with the BBEG will, if I do it right, be only natural. </p><p></p><p>In other news though, Ive also come to a decision on codifying Races, or as I will call them "Bloodlines" as part of the game, also due to inspiration from a book, this time Dungeon World. The idea of Race driving class specific abilities is awesome, and so, Im stealing the idea and elaborating on it considerably. Meanwhile, the Bloodlines themselves will be sort of symmetrical to Talents in that they'll have a Passive, but also a number of abilities that will correlate to specific Classes, the availability of which will come down to Culture considerations. </p><p></p><p>Essentially, each Bloodline will have a few cultures associated with it, and with them comes the different Class abilities. </p><p></p><p>And as far as stat considerations go, Bloodlines will provide a selection of additional dice to roll for determining your Base Energies, and some I think might provide a small die to roll for a Base Talent, which would let you push yourself beyond the basic limit of +30. </p><p></p><p>And thats it for the moment. Though just to illustrate the scale of this, heres the finalized list of Talents and their Associated Skills:</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Emberashh, post: 9088037, member: 7040941"] Gosh where do I even start? Been some pretty substantial upheavals to say the least, so Ill just shoot em off willy nilly. Name Change: Name is condensing down simply to Labyrinthian. I and others kept calling it Labyrinths and so I did the thing and embraced it mostly, going for the one word Labyrinthian to still be evocative. The Class system is being pulled back...slightly, to make more logical sense in tandem with the Skill system. We'll still be having 30 levels worth of class content, but it will be split 2/3 base class (focusing on just a Primary and Secondary Ability Chain) and 1/3 Subclass. These will still be linear but will be more tightly focused and, best of all, easier to compress down for ease of use on a Character sheet. The (Talent and) Skill System meanwhile is embracing a sort of hybrid of Oblivion's and Skyrims skill systems, but with my unique take on how Attributes relate to skills. In a nutshell, your Talents (Attributes) are derived from the average of 4 Skills under it, and the resulting Talent Modifier (goes up to +30) not only factors into the 4 Energies, but also serve as your Skill mod. That part was already a change from earlier, but Talents now all contribute a number of different Passives and Abilities. As an example, lets look at Charisma: Done this way, Talents justify their use very, very much. But the Skills themselves however are the really big change, though I suspected this was going to come sooner or later. Essentially, each individual skill is going to have Perk Paths (more creative name pending) that you can choose to spend your Skill points on in lieu of an additional level in the Skill. As for what these Perk Paths will cover, Im intending to, if I can, have paths that will basically cover every "Pillar" in the game (Combat, Adventuring, Social, Crafting, Domains (!!!), Warfare), and will be treated essentially as chooseable Ability chains similar to those in Classes. This change is going to be great not only because I think itll help appeal to a broader range of people (ie, people who like to build characters), but also add some more longevity to the game. Not only will the need to spend for Perks help slow the overall leveling rate, but I believe it should also help keep the game going even beyond max level. And as for why Im not just skipping Classes altogether? Because thats stupid. But also because it gives Players a means to lean into specific tropes more readily without having to construe a build first. And also also because I just have way too many great class ideas to just, not do them justice as proper classes. Ive already covered most of the Martial ones and where they go, but have a look at the full list if you haven't seen it: Meanwhile, I was initially apprehensive about leaning into Domain play, but like Warfare its something Ive managed to keep bumping up against. But, it was also because I got and read Arora: Age of Desolation, which is a fascinating book for 5e, namely because I think this is the first time Ive read an RPG book and found myself just...[I]agreeing[/I] so much with everything, up to and including my near verbatim thoughts on Integration in game design, which accounts for why so many wonderful modes of play seem so cut off from the modern gamer like Survival. So, taking Aroras take on Domains (which actually aren't Domains in the traditional sense) as inspiration, alongside some rather critical directions from ACKS and OSE, Im going to be including this as a new pillar of play, accessible and integrated into the gameplay loop from level Zero. Like the other Pillars of course, you won't have to engage with it if it doesn't fit the kind of game you want to go for, but I think if I accomplish what I want to do with it, I can't see people not wanting to go for it in general. As for what it will look like, Ill provide a rough thesis: With a game focused on getting out and Adventuring as the principle gameplay loop (whether its for Questing, to Gather and Craft, to Level up, to Loot, whatever), Parties will find themselves needing an essential "Hub" for their adventures, a place of respite that they can consistently return to even if already established Settlements are too far away to be reasonable. Ergo, players will be able to establish Settlements in the wilderness; little more than glorified Camps initially, these can be grown through the attraction of settlers, the input of resources, and the careful and occasional intervention to defend against the troubles of making a home in the Outlands, from your crop failures to your Barbarian raids and even on up to Dragon and Giant attacks. As these settlements begin to develop into true villages, and with careful cultivation od surrounding areas, even cities, the Players will be able to establish personalized Strongholds and Organizations corresponding to their class to govern them. A Warrior might build a Castle and his own personal retinue, but a Wizard might establish their own Tower and Dungeon. A Cleric a Church and Graveyard, or a Necromancer a Lair and Cult. And so on. Each of these will not only build into the Domain play itself, but will also serve as extensions of the classes gameplay up to that point, transforming the Party into the Alliance. The Alliance, basically, is just the Adventuring party writ grand in terms of scale, and will comprise not just of our Heroes themselves, but the armies and organizations they control. This is where the game can really shine at the level I want it to...the mythical Wars of LOTR lore will probably pail in comparison, to give an idea of my vision here. But, as mentioned, Integration is key as is the choice to engage. At these levels you will still be able to get up to the same degree of hijinks and awesomeness even if you're disinterested in being something grander than just a really powerful Adventurer, but you'll also be able to seamlessly transfer between them. Going from fighting a War of Wrath to a personal duel with the BBEG will, if I do it right, be only natural. In other news though, Ive also come to a decision on codifying Races, or as I will call them "Bloodlines" as part of the game, also due to inspiration from a book, this time Dungeon World. The idea of Race driving class specific abilities is awesome, and so, Im stealing the idea and elaborating on it considerably. Meanwhile, the Bloodlines themselves will be sort of symmetrical to Talents in that they'll have a Passive, but also a number of abilities that will correlate to specific Classes, the availability of which will come down to Culture considerations. Essentially, each Bloodline will have a few cultures associated with it, and with them comes the different Class abilities. And as far as stat considerations go, Bloodlines will provide a selection of additional dice to roll for determining your Base Energies, and some I think might provide a small die to roll for a Base Talent, which would let you push yourself beyond the basic limit of +30. And thats it for the moment. Though just to illustrate the scale of this, heres the finalized list of Talents and their Associated Skills: [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Labyrinths and Outlands
Top