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<blockquote data-quote="Theo R Cwithin" data-source="post: 4862079" data-attributes="member: 75712">I definitely see your point: as is, perfectly possible real world people are not describable by the mechanics.&nbsp; The difficulty of modelling mental ability in game terms rears its ugly head yet again - and applied to something &quot;mushy&quot; like language, no less!Really, i think there are lots of little hacks (albeit mainly unsatisfying ones) to get around these kinds of problems.&nbsp; Your friend entering university had done a lot of education as a youth, which is a huge advantage for language learning.&nbsp; So an in-game solution might be to consider any languages learned as a youth as &quot;native&quot; or &quot;racial&quot;, subject to the character's background rather than an explicit mechanic.&nbsp; (Can we say &quot;handwaving&quot;?&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />)Alternatively, this might be fixed with a feat, for example the &quot;Ear for Languages&quot; feat above: instead of learning a language twice as fast during immersion, make it earn 2 ranks whenever a normal person would earn 1 rank? (Yeah, this is VERY contrived <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!&nbsp; &nbsp; :o"&nbsp; data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" /> )&nbsp; Then, even an Expert with only 12 INT could be fluent in 6 languages at level 1, with a few ranks left over to max out Profession (Interpreter) and pad Diplomacy and Sense Motive, as well. Believable?&nbsp; (And by 6th level he's fluent in maybe 8 languages, and by 20th, something like 12, I think?&nbsp; Still hardly demigod-like!)&nbsp; Ultimately, though, I started down this path just because I'm interested in making a system that (1) is based on the standard &quot;DC 10 = average&quot; ideal; and (2) is basically invisible in the vast majority of cases that communication happens.&nbsp; A lot of approaches seem to address language proficiency suing a 4- or 5-rank system, but I guess I like the idea a 10-rank system for the sake of symmetry <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool&nbsp; &nbsp; :cool:"&nbsp; data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" />.I'll look into people's suggestions here.&nbsp; Thanks for the info and guidance, all.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Theo R Cwithin, post: 4862079, member: 75712"] I definitely see your point: as is, perfectly possible real world people are not describable by the mechanics. The difficulty of modelling mental ability in game terms rears its ugly head yet again - and applied to something "mushy" like language, no less! Really, i think there are lots of little hacks (albeit mainly unsatisfying ones) to get around these kinds of problems. Your friend entering university had done a lot of education as a youth, which is a [B]huge[/B] advantage for language learning. So an in-game solution might be to consider any languages learned as a youth as "native" or "racial", subject to the character's background rather than an explicit mechanic. (Can we say "handwaving"? ;)) Alternatively, this might be fixed with a feat, for example the "Ear for Languages" feat above: instead of learning a language twice as fast during immersion, make it earn 2 ranks whenever a normal person would earn 1 rank? (Yeah, this is VERY contrived :o ) Then, even an Expert with only 12 INT could be fluent in 6 languages at level 1, with a few ranks left over to max out Profession (Interpreter) and pad Diplomacy and Sense Motive, as well. Believable? (And by 6th level he's fluent in maybe 8 languages, and by 20th, something like 12, I think? Still hardly demigod-like!) Ultimately, though, I started down this path just because I'm interested in making a system that (1) is based on the standard "DC 10 = average" ideal; and (2) is basically invisible in the vast majority of cases that communication happens. A lot of approaches seem to address language proficiency suing a 4- or 5-rank system, but I guess I like the idea a 10-rank system for the sake of symmetry :cool:. I'll look into people's suggestions here. Thanks for the info and guidance, all. [/QUOTE]

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