Large Groups and Appropriate XP

[Larry Fitz]

When dealing with large groups of player characters (7-10) do you still use average party level to calculate what is an appropriate challenge and determine how much xp a specific CR creature is worth? I had a player complain that I was not giving enough XP to the group because I calculated a party of ten (average level 8.5 but one person is 11 and two are 7) as being party level 11. The problem IMO is that a group of 4-5 CR 8 creatures would be no challenge to this group whatsoever, heck a group of 4-5 CR 10 creatures would be no challenge. I've had this discussion before, but since it just came up I'd like to get some fresh opinions.

 

[jmucchiello]

I've been toying with upping ave party level by 1 per person over 6. Thus 4 characters are just average, 5-6 characters are average + 1, 7 characters are average +2, 8 = ave +3, etc. I haven't run into the situation more than a few times but you might increase by two at the 9th or 10th character.

 

[Shemeska]

Well, I've got seven characters in my current campaign, including 6 PC's and one NPC. I've noticed how they rather crunch through most things of the party CR or lower. I've been tossing them against stuff of a CR at least 1 or two higher than themselves.

As far as awarding XP however, I've been leaving it rather open ended. They level when I feel they should given the number of encounter, how difficult it is, and when the leveling up process seems appropriate given where they are and how much downtime they've had. I don't level the party inside the middle of a plot arc or when they've had no chance to rest between encounters.

I've not been scientific about it at all, and its somewhat at my whim when it happens, but I've not had a single complaint so far from any of my players, so it's apparently working out well. Of course that doesn't really give any specifics to help out any other DM's in the same situation. But the system, or lack of one, has worked for me.

 

[Azul]

I've got a 7 player party now and my former campaign had 10 players. With well-rounded groups this size, you sort of have to throw the kitchen sink at them to threaten them. I've generally followed the EL rules in reverse... the 10 person was 2.5 times the size of the "typical" 4 person party, so I used encounters +2 to +3 EL above the recommended amount for their level. With the 7 player group, I tend to go with +2 EL over (although this 7 player group is pretty solid and hard to hurt).

As for XP... that's been my bugbear... I've often tended to downgrade the XP value, but I've done so in an ad-hoc sort of way. I like the suggestion of upping the "effective party level" for XP awards. I think I'll treat my 7 person group as 2 levels higher (following the an encounter with twice as many critters is 2 EL stronger logic) for XP calculation purposes. It will tone down their advancement a bit.

 

[Winterthorn]

Hmm... A party of ten. The simplest way I could think of dealing with this is to split the group into 2 groups of 5 when calculating XP's. The 5 highest together, and the 5 lowest together... Perhaps one could use the same strategy when working with EL's?

I think the game system permits "working with smaller chunks". I one encounter my players had, while the party wasn't split, I did split the XP and treasure calculations. A 6th level party of 4 PC's and 2 NPCs fought off a den of kobolds: 14 1st-level warriors led by a 4th level sorcerer and her four 5th level henchmen (warriors and rogues, 2 each type). I first dealt with the calculations concerning the 14 warriors as one EL group, and the other 5 "leaders" as a second EL group.

This worked out really well for me.

I bet the reverse could work too; split your player's party into 2 with respect to the calculations versus a given EL...

That's the quickest solution I could think of... Good luck!

-W.

 

[LazarusLong42]

I recommend this page:

http://www.enworld.org/cc/fiend_factory/elc/encounter_calculator.htm

It calculates your party (I'm assuming to get an average of 8.5, the remaining members are 3 8th-level and 4 9th-level) as EL 11.4; I'd say you're fully justified in calling them level 11.

However, this means you should be throwing them EL 11-appropriate encounters. If 4 CR 8 adversaries are no challenge--as they *should* be--then the question becomes whether the party's EL isn't higher because of magic items on hand. Are they above the average gold for their levels? If so, call the party EL 12, send heavier adversaries against them, and they'll start earning XP commensurate with the heavier monsters.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Maybe I've misunderstood, but calculating XP doesn't change based on party size. Whether there are 2 characters or 20, you figure the average party level to determine total XP for an encounter, then divide that total by the number of party members. Parties with 10 members will gain XP much more slowly than parties of 4, without any need to fudge with average character levels.

That said, if you have a large party with significantly different levels, I would heartily recommend Winterthorn's suggestion to break it into two or more "chunks". So long as everyone is at risk in the encounter, it seems fair to award XP based on different average levels.

Where party size matters is in encounter level (EL). A party of 8 characters can handle roughly twice as many enemies as a standard party of 4. This may result in EL's a couple levels higher than the average party level just to make them break a sweat, much less challenge them. But be careful not to simply throw a higher-CR creature at a large party - the creature may have weaknesses that lower-level characters cannot take advantage of, or strengths the party cannot counter, resulting in a TPK or near-TPK.

Example: a gargoyle is a CR 4 creature and has DR 15/+1. If you throw one at a party of 8 2nd-level characters with no magic weapons, how difficult is the encounter really? A better choice is to use bugbears or ogres and simply increase the number of opponents.