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last encounter was totally one-sided
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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6965320" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>Should level 15 characters be afraid of 300 rampaging orcs? I don't think they should. 300 orcs is a fairly small horde. I think six level 15 characters should be able to kill an orc horde that size fairly easy. Level 15 is serious power and should be serious power in a cinematic sword and sorcery game like D&D. A ten thousand orc horde? Now that should scare them. That's a worthy fight for level 15 D&D characters. That's an epic fight against a horde threatening an entire realm they are dutybound to protect. Three hundred orcs? That's a tiny horde threatening some villages or a small city. A 300 orc horde would be something I might consider for 4th to 7th level characters for them to kill over the course of an entire adventure arc.</p><p></p><p>Most DMs can concoct a way to kill their players in a one time encounter where they set them up in some kind of situation where you exploit their weaknesses and find a creature capable of defeating their strengths. This isn't any kind of challenge for a DM. "Gee, I killed my players to prove I could" is not a statement I'm looking to make. The challenge is making the game fun and challenging at the same time on a consistent basis, not the occasional one off challenge with artificial time limits, environmental factors that take away all their abilities they enjoy using, and other factors you can't use every single encounter.</p><p></p><p>I've not made a single statement that 5E is "failing" because that is far too big a claim. I and other folks like CapnZapp have pointed out areas of the game that have to be watched carefully because they provide players with an out-sized advantage in a very large number of situations that make the game trivial. Does that mean we can never challenge the players? No, it does not. What it does mean is the players can take on far more powerful creatures and situations than the CR system takes into account, meaning the DM has to modify often because MM monsters were not designed very well for challenging PCs at higher levels. Specifically, solitary creatures are far too limited and easily exploited by smart players using the base abilities of the game. It's not an insurmountable challenge, but it's one to be aware of.</p><p></p><p>As far as a specific aspect of the game I'm not caring for is the fast combat. For some reason beating a dragon in three or four rounds feels unsatisfying as a DM. I know this is working as intended, but an ancient dragon going down in 3 to 6 rounds (18 to 36 seconds) feels anticlimactic. The only way I get around this feel is to get rid of the idea of six second rounds and instead move to the idea of much longer rounds (1 minute or more of game time). It feels more cinematic if the fights seem longer in the game world. This is a personal style preference than a criticism of the game.</p><p></p><p>Suffice it to say 5E isn't "failing." It has some areas of concern that take some work to clean up to get a feel folks like myself and more than a few others want in combat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 6965320, member: 5834"] Should level 15 characters be afraid of 300 rampaging orcs? I don't think they should. 300 orcs is a fairly small horde. I think six level 15 characters should be able to kill an orc horde that size fairly easy. Level 15 is serious power and should be serious power in a cinematic sword and sorcery game like D&D. A ten thousand orc horde? Now that should scare them. That's a worthy fight for level 15 D&D characters. That's an epic fight against a horde threatening an entire realm they are dutybound to protect. Three hundred orcs? That's a tiny horde threatening some villages or a small city. A 300 orc horde would be something I might consider for 4th to 7th level characters for them to kill over the course of an entire adventure arc. Most DMs can concoct a way to kill their players in a one time encounter where they set them up in some kind of situation where you exploit their weaknesses and find a creature capable of defeating their strengths. This isn't any kind of challenge for a DM. "Gee, I killed my players to prove I could" is not a statement I'm looking to make. The challenge is making the game fun and challenging at the same time on a consistent basis, not the occasional one off challenge with artificial time limits, environmental factors that take away all their abilities they enjoy using, and other factors you can't use every single encounter. I've not made a single statement that 5E is "failing" because that is far too big a claim. I and other folks like CapnZapp have pointed out areas of the game that have to be watched carefully because they provide players with an out-sized advantage in a very large number of situations that make the game trivial. Does that mean we can never challenge the players? No, it does not. What it does mean is the players can take on far more powerful creatures and situations than the CR system takes into account, meaning the DM has to modify often because MM monsters were not designed very well for challenging PCs at higher levels. Specifically, solitary creatures are far too limited and easily exploited by smart players using the base abilities of the game. It's not an insurmountable challenge, but it's one to be aware of. As far as a specific aspect of the game I'm not caring for is the fast combat. For some reason beating a dragon in three or four rounds feels unsatisfying as a DM. I know this is working as intended, but an ancient dragon going down in 3 to 6 rounds (18 to 36 seconds) feels anticlimactic. The only way I get around this feel is to get rid of the idea of six second rounds and instead move to the idea of much longer rounds (1 minute or more of game time). It feels more cinematic if the fights seem longer in the game world. This is a personal style preference than a criticism of the game. Suffice it to say 5E isn't "failing." It has some areas of concern that take some work to clean up to get a feel folks like myself and more than a few others want in combat. [/QUOTE]
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