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last encounter was totally one-sided
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 6965667" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so much as going with how I took your earlier comments. You said no threat and no hesitation and no fear and easy and things like that. </p><p></p><p>What you're describing above is a much more thoughtful approach, and more carefully planned, and I would say more likely to succeed. The more direct approach I don't think would work; the example of the war cleric is indeed impressive, until he inevitably loses concentration and is then attacked by multiple enemies at once. Things might not go so great as you describe, at that point. </p><p></p><p>But really, the orc horde example isn't the point. The point is that there is just a logistical aspect at play. Why would any group of 6 people assume they could easily dispatch 300 other people? If you read a book where they did think that, wouldn't that resonate with you as false? Or forced? Or just bad writing? I'm not saying they can't face great odds and triumph...indeed that can and should happen. But it's when the characters start acting like they know this all with a certainty that things need to change.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have played with high level characters. One PC group in my campaign is a mix of level 16 and 14. I know how capable they are. </p><p></p><p>My point, however, is more about how you address this in a game. Why would the orcs know that level 15 characters opposed them? They may know that capable adventurers opposed them, but they have no idea of levels and so on. Nor should the PCs, except as an abstract representation of overall ability. Characters don't walk around with experience bars floating above their heads like in video games. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My point is that it seems that your players know immediately that this would be a standard orc horde. They already know the capabilities based on their knowledge of the monster entry in the Monster Manual rather than anything else. My point is that from a fictional standpoint, why would any character assume that they and their 5 friends could easily defeat a force of 300? Especially when that force could include opponents just as capable as they are. Why can't a cleric of Gruumsh be as capable as a cleric of Torm? Why would the characters assume that? </p><p></p><p>Because the players assume it. And my assumption, which could be wrong, is that they assume that because you've given them no reason to assume anything else. You present the challenges directly out of the book, balanced to one degree or another to be easy or difficult or deadly or whatever....but they're all supposed to be defeated. </p><p></p><p>This is what I mean by shifting your DM style. Your players know how badass their characters are, and so the characters know it as well. You need to break them of that knowledge. Having a war band of orcs that consisted of some level 12 leaders and then an assortment of other orc threats would probably help out in that regard. Put them up against something that cannot be beaten in combat. Make them think of another solution. Surprise them a bit from time to time so that they stop assuming every encounter is meant to be defeated. You have to give them a little doubt. </p><p></p><p>All the fancy abilities in the world, min-maxed to the extreme, won't always save them. Make them know that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 6965667, member: 6785785"] I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so much as going with how I took your earlier comments. You said no threat and no hesitation and no fear and easy and things like that. What you're describing above is a much more thoughtful approach, and more carefully planned, and I would say more likely to succeed. The more direct approach I don't think would work; the example of the war cleric is indeed impressive, until he inevitably loses concentration and is then attacked by multiple enemies at once. Things might not go so great as you describe, at that point. But really, the orc horde example isn't the point. The point is that there is just a logistical aspect at play. Why would any group of 6 people assume they could easily dispatch 300 other people? If you read a book where they did think that, wouldn't that resonate with you as false? Or forced? Or just bad writing? I'm not saying they can't face great odds and triumph...indeed that can and should happen. But it's when the characters start acting like they know this all with a certainty that things need to change. I have played with high level characters. One PC group in my campaign is a mix of level 16 and 14. I know how capable they are. My point, however, is more about how you address this in a game. Why would the orcs know that level 15 characters opposed them? They may know that capable adventurers opposed them, but they have no idea of levels and so on. Nor should the PCs, except as an abstract representation of overall ability. Characters don't walk around with experience bars floating above their heads like in video games. My point is that it seems that your players know immediately that this would be a standard orc horde. They already know the capabilities based on their knowledge of the monster entry in the Monster Manual rather than anything else. My point is that from a fictional standpoint, why would any character assume that they and their 5 friends could easily defeat a force of 300? Especially when that force could include opponents just as capable as they are. Why can't a cleric of Gruumsh be as capable as a cleric of Torm? Why would the characters assume that? Because the players assume it. And my assumption, which could be wrong, is that they assume that because you've given them no reason to assume anything else. You present the challenges directly out of the book, balanced to one degree or another to be easy or difficult or deadly or whatever....but they're all supposed to be defeated. This is what I mean by shifting your DM style. Your players know how badass their characters are, and so the characters know it as well. You need to break them of that knowledge. Having a war band of orcs that consisted of some level 12 leaders and then an assortment of other orc threats would probably help out in that regard. Put them up against something that cannot be beaten in combat. Make them think of another solution. Surprise them a bit from time to time so that they stop assuming every encounter is meant to be defeated. You have to give them a little doubt. All the fancy abilities in the world, min-maxed to the extreme, won't always save them. Make them know that. [/QUOTE]
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