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last encounter was totally one-sided
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<blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 6977784" data-attributes="member: 6855114"><p>Very few threath could prove lethal for a group of high level adventurers in 1ed. Almost none...</p><p></p><p>The most powerful creatures were not really that much of a big thing back then. That is why there are stories of group slaying demi to greater gods to have a challenge! In those times it was easy to fall into the hack 'n slash or maunty haul campaigns. D&D was played more like a board games in which each room was a challenge to be vanquished and that would not interact with each others or to outside stimuli. 10 orcs in room A would stay there until PC would trigger them. The only way to make things feel "alive" was the random encounters and logic was not always there.</p><p></p><p>It took more than the standard DM to create immersive play in which every game could challenge the players in a logical way. The dreaded Tomb of Horror was one of the first adventures to introduce real threaths (and possible true death for players) that were not simple monsters.</p><p></p><p>It took the Island of the Ape to see a true challenge adventure for high level characters. I will not spoil the end (in case some players are reading) but the end fight was a killer if the players had not prepared accordingly because they had missed some major hints.</p><p></p><p>Dragon Lance was the first serie of modules that were more than 3 in length that had a creative continuous story in which players had to flee. They were still basic but they were a blast to run. The story element was very strong and reading the book would not help simply because the ending and the story plot were highly modular/random if the DM wanted to. It also introduced the "mysterious death" option in which the body of a slain character would disappear only to have that character come back for the next adventure. (Yes I know of GDQ 1-7 but they started as independent adventures. The link is simply a background story check to which players are reacting to. They are not the driving force that change some of the outcomes as in the DL serie)</p><p></p><p>True free form campaing came with the Shadow Dale, Tantras and Waterdeep adventures that were introducing 2nd edition. In it we could see the begining of the mile stones (players should be X level to get here). Not everything was written down and the DM had a lot of work ahead of him to make things work out smoothly. After that, most adventures reverted to the standard adventures of 1st edition. DM and players might not have been ready for this kind of product yet. Again most threaths were not that big of challenge.</p><p></p><p>3rd edition introduced the "campaing" module series in which players were brought from 1st level to 20th level in a campaing that required almost no side trek adventures. They were kind of a package deal. Now threath are really out there as monsters can now use every single advantages the players have. No monsters can be taken out of the MM and used as his, especialy casters. Dragons were the worst to build. That alone led to all kind of abuse (and mathematics was being the least of it) but it was the edition in which monsters could finaly be a real threath alone, or not. But it was not an easy era for DMs. All this mathematical riff raff led to the 5mwd that still plague the game even to this day. The threaths were there but the balancing and work involved is astronomical, almost biblical in proportion. </p><p></p><p>4th edition followed with for the first time, leveling from 1 to 30 in the core book. No need for an epic level handbook now. Still threaths were not that big of a challenge if the guidelines were followed as written. Monsters could now be taken out of the box again and DM work was minimal. Yet for all its good side and innovation, 4ed fell short in players and DM expectations. The classes were too balanced at every level and playing one or the other didn't have any meaning at all. The game almost looked like a table top MMORPG. They did try to correct the 4ed trajectory with subsequent books but it was too little too late. The first and formost real redeeming quality of fourth edition was the introduction of attack cantrips that could be used at will. Now spell caster could go and use magic as a fighter uses his sword. The second quality (and not the last) was that mathematics (or the how many "+"s do I have to count for this round? syndrome) in D&D were no longuer a nightmare.</p><p></p><p>5ed reverted back to a crossbreed between 4th and 1st ed. Mathematic is now at an acceptable level. Casters were somewhat downgraded but are still powerful (no CODZILLA as in 3.x ed. good Lord am I glad). The threath level in 5ed is comparable to a cross breed between 1ed and 4th. The solo (lair) monsters are a bit lacking and the idea of 4ed that solo should realy be solo is no longuer true. Solo must either be accompanied by minions or be preceded by tough fights to be used alone. The threath level is easy to assess for old timers like me but some younger DM (especialy those that were introduced in the 3.x and 4ed era) have a bit of a difficulty to adjust. The 5mwd dies hard as this kind of play is the closest to what you see in novels and movies and it is psychologicaly natural to want to stick to the 5mwd. </p><p></p><p>So Flamestrike is perfectly right in saying that there is no problem with the threath level in 5ed and so are those that are saying the opposite. It seems to depends on which era you were introduced to D&D. From what I see, 1ed and 2ed gamers have no problem to adjust (and it seems we were the target audience for 5ed). The 3.x, PF and 4ed gamers seems to have a harder to time to adapt. Again I may be wrong but this is the feeling that I get from the other DMs I see around my home town and to a lesser extent, this forum.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Helldritch, post: 6977784, member: 6855114"] Very few threath could prove lethal for a group of high level adventurers in 1ed. Almost none... The most powerful creatures were not really that much of a big thing back then. That is why there are stories of group slaying demi to greater gods to have a challenge! In those times it was easy to fall into the hack 'n slash or maunty haul campaigns. D&D was played more like a board games in which each room was a challenge to be vanquished and that would not interact with each others or to outside stimuli. 10 orcs in room A would stay there until PC would trigger them. The only way to make things feel "alive" was the random encounters and logic was not always there. It took more than the standard DM to create immersive play in which every game could challenge the players in a logical way. The dreaded Tomb of Horror was one of the first adventures to introduce real threaths (and possible true death for players) that were not simple monsters. It took the Island of the Ape to see a true challenge adventure for high level characters. I will not spoil the end (in case some players are reading) but the end fight was a killer if the players had not prepared accordingly because they had missed some major hints. Dragon Lance was the first serie of modules that were more than 3 in length that had a creative continuous story in which players had to flee. They were still basic but they were a blast to run. The story element was very strong and reading the book would not help simply because the ending and the story plot were highly modular/random if the DM wanted to. It also introduced the "mysterious death" option in which the body of a slain character would disappear only to have that character come back for the next adventure. (Yes I know of GDQ 1-7 but they started as independent adventures. The link is simply a background story check to which players are reacting to. They are not the driving force that change some of the outcomes as in the DL serie) True free form campaing came with the Shadow Dale, Tantras and Waterdeep adventures that were introducing 2nd edition. In it we could see the begining of the mile stones (players should be X level to get here). Not everything was written down and the DM had a lot of work ahead of him to make things work out smoothly. After that, most adventures reverted to the standard adventures of 1st edition. DM and players might not have been ready for this kind of product yet. Again most threaths were not that big of challenge. 3rd edition introduced the "campaing" module series in which players were brought from 1st level to 20th level in a campaing that required almost no side trek adventures. They were kind of a package deal. Now threath are really out there as monsters can now use every single advantages the players have. No monsters can be taken out of the MM and used as his, especialy casters. Dragons were the worst to build. That alone led to all kind of abuse (and mathematics was being the least of it) but it was the edition in which monsters could finaly be a real threath alone, or not. But it was not an easy era for DMs. All this mathematical riff raff led to the 5mwd that still plague the game even to this day. The threaths were there but the balancing and work involved is astronomical, almost biblical in proportion. 4th edition followed with for the first time, leveling from 1 to 30 in the core book. No need for an epic level handbook now. Still threaths were not that big of a challenge if the guidelines were followed as written. Monsters could now be taken out of the box again and DM work was minimal. Yet for all its good side and innovation, 4ed fell short in players and DM expectations. The classes were too balanced at every level and playing one or the other didn't have any meaning at all. The game almost looked like a table top MMORPG. They did try to correct the 4ed trajectory with subsequent books but it was too little too late. The first and formost real redeeming quality of fourth edition was the introduction of attack cantrips that could be used at will. Now spell caster could go and use magic as a fighter uses his sword. The second quality (and not the last) was that mathematics (or the how many "+"s do I have to count for this round? syndrome) in D&D were no longuer a nightmare. 5ed reverted back to a crossbreed between 4th and 1st ed. Mathematic is now at an acceptable level. Casters were somewhat downgraded but are still powerful (no CODZILLA as in 3.x ed. good Lord am I glad). The threath level in 5ed is comparable to a cross breed between 1ed and 4th. The solo (lair) monsters are a bit lacking and the idea of 4ed that solo should realy be solo is no longuer true. Solo must either be accompanied by minions or be preceded by tough fights to be used alone. The threath level is easy to assess for old timers like me but some younger DM (especialy those that were introduced in the 3.x and 4ed era) have a bit of a difficulty to adjust. The 5mwd dies hard as this kind of play is the closest to what you see in novels and movies and it is psychologicaly natural to want to stick to the 5mwd. So Flamestrike is perfectly right in saying that there is no problem with the threath level in 5ed and so are those that are saying the opposite. It seems to depends on which era you were introduced to D&D. From what I see, 1ed and 2ed gamers have no problem to adjust (and it seems we were the target audience for 5ed). The 3.x, PF and 4ed gamers seems to have a harder to time to adapt. Again I may be wrong but this is the feeling that I get from the other DMs I see around my home town and to a lesser extent, this forum. [/QUOTE]
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