NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 8031976" data-attributes="member: 6788736">Joel was always an evil man. In DnD terms he is NE in the first game. Pre apocalypse he was Neutral (he loves his daughter dearly, and is not evil, but is totally OK with leaving a family to die on the side of the road - he serves his own interests without harming others, or going out of his way to help them).Fast forward 20 years into the apocalypse and he is shown as being totally OK with brutal torture and murder. On multiple occasions. Even his brother Tommy (who is also down with murder and torture) outright states in the first game that Joel did things as a Hunter that even he found disturbing.It is outright stated that Joel has 'few moral lines he has not yet crossed'.[EXCERPT]Over the years, the pair survived by descending into a sinister way of life, hurting innocent people; going so far as killing them; all to survive. Joel tortured, deceived, and killed countless innocent people, becoming a <a href="https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Hunters" target="_blank">hunter</a>. He adopted tactics such as tricking passersby into thinking he was hurt so he, Tommy, and likely others could ambush them when they let their guard down.[/EXCERPT][EXCERPT]Described as being in his late 40's in the first game, Joel knew what the world looked like before it was devastated. Over time, he had begun to become less bound by morality and more driven by doing whatever is necessary to survive. "What he wouldn't do in the past is almost a daily occurrence at this point," Bruce Straley, the game's director, notes.<a href="https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Joel_Miller#cite_note-46" target="_blank">[47]</a>Joel has been described as a "violent thug, a brutal killer, and a torturer."<a href="https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Joel_Miller#cite_note-47" target="_blank">[48]</a>  During the aftermath of the epidemic that struck the country, Joel had initially become a Hunter, stealing from and killing innocent people in order to get by. This continued for several years, before he resorted to working in black-market dealings and smuggling items or people of interest through quarantine zones or other designated areas.<a href="https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Joel_Miller#cite_note-48" target="_blank">[49]</a> [/EXCERPT]<a href="https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Joel_Miller" target="_blank">Joel Miller</a>He loves Ellie more than anything. But he is not a good man.Abby on the other hand is clearly depicted as consistently showing mercy, compassion, altruism and kindness (barring her torture and murder of Joel) and she was fighting for arguably a just cause (the Fireflies, seeking to stop the zombie outbreak).Abby then clearly mirrors Joels journey in the TLOU 1. She joins the morally nebulous Wolves after losing her Father (Joel instead becomes a Hunter and then a Smuggler and stand over man after losing his Daughter) before forming a bond with an outcast (Lev in her case, Ellie in Joels) and turning her back on her past life to protect that person.I find it insane you can critcise Abby and not also Joel. Their paths are mirrored, with Abby being far more morally upstanding than Joel ever was.The reason you hate Abby so much is because the game made you. You hated her when she killed Joel (who you cared about, and were invested in from the first game) in such a senseless manner, so you couldnt empathise with her when you were forced to play her, even when it became apparent she was (unlike Ellie and Joel) largely a morally Good person.All the deaths in the game are Joels fault actually. If Joel hadnt have murdered Abbys dad, she never would have come looking for him for revenge. Ellie never would have embarked on her killing spree, and the whole events of the game never would have happened.</blockquote>

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