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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7700477" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>That didn't exactly work out in 3.x, did it? Fighters crawled from Tier 5 to Tier 4 over 8 years. A new martial class or few would have more potential. Climb out of the DPR box. For a little while, it looked like the playtest might have been going that way. Then they gave MDD to everyone, then gave up on 'em. :shrug: </p><p></p><p>If maneuvers n/rest resources are too complicated, it's really shy of such options, ATM. Technically none (even the Champion has 2 n/rest resources, 3 if you count HD). The simplest options are pretty similar to eachother, too. The Barbarian (n/day resources, so maybe doesn't even make the cut), the Champion, and the Thief/Assassin (can't say 'rogue' because of the AT), all just use weapons to do a lot of damage. And, while the Thief & Assassin may not be encumbered by resources, they're not exactly simple to play, needing to use the murky stealth rules, maneuver for advantage, and make best use of their Expertise choices. There's no simpler option that uses magic or does anything much besides hitting things. So there's a /lot/ of opportunity. Simpler classes with more (but still simple) stuff going on out of combat, and phone-it-in combat contributions. Simpler magic-using classes of all varieties (there are quite a lot of magic-using classes, afterall) that don't have to mess around with spells and slots or Ki points or anything.</p><p></p><p>5e is through with any sort of player entitlement, so it's really the DM who decides what happens and what doesn't. Heck, that was even true in your example, maybe the DM would never have an enemy provoke an OA, maybe they'd do so all the time. It's a matter of the enemies he placed and he chose to run them. In 5e, it's moreso, the DM can make any feat useful or marginal.</p><p></p><p>You left out later 2e, another prime example (though 4e hardly stuck around long enough to be killed of that particular problem, it was like undetected colon cancer to someone who just had a heart attack, when he realized he'd stepped on a land mine. ;P )</p><p></p><p>Seriously, though, 'bloat' is a very real, but not inevitable problem. Games like traditional D&D that add options by adding new sub-systems to long lists - lists of spells, classes, sub-classes, spells, races, sub-races, spells, magic items, feats, and, of course, spells - suffer exponentially from bloat. Each new sub-system has potential negative (or synergistic) interactions with each preceding one. It rapidly becomes unmanageable. 3.x DMs dealt with that via 'Core only' games, for instance. Games that are more 'effects based' - Hero System is always the prime example (4e would be more familiar, but to a much lesser extent) - both absorb bloat more easily, and have less impetus to bloat, because you can add new elements without adding new sub-systems. So it's not really a concern if Hero puts out 40 sourcebooks, while it'd be a disaster if WotC did so.</p><p></p><p>I think drawing the line with 'feats' or 'spells' or 'classes' or whatever is not the best way to go about it. What you're trying to model with those game elements would be a better way of seeing when you have 'enough.' Do we have 'enough' ways of modeling spellcasters? 30+ sub-classes, hundreds of spells, several different casting systems with more in the DMG? Yeah, maybe we do. Do we have enough fighter sub-classes? In print, maybe not. Including UA & such, yeah, probably.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7700477, member: 996"] That didn't exactly work out in 3.x, did it? Fighters crawled from Tier 5 to Tier 4 over 8 years. A new martial class or few would have more potential. Climb out of the DPR box. For a little while, it looked like the playtest might have been going that way. Then they gave MDD to everyone, then gave up on 'em. :shrug: If maneuvers n/rest resources are too complicated, it's really shy of such options, ATM. Technically none (even the Champion has 2 n/rest resources, 3 if you count HD). The simplest options are pretty similar to eachother, too. The Barbarian (n/day resources, so maybe doesn't even make the cut), the Champion, and the Thief/Assassin (can't say 'rogue' because of the AT), all just use weapons to do a lot of damage. And, while the Thief & Assassin may not be encumbered by resources, they're not exactly simple to play, needing to use the murky stealth rules, maneuver for advantage, and make best use of their Expertise choices. There's no simpler option that uses magic or does anything much besides hitting things. So there's a /lot/ of opportunity. Simpler classes with more (but still simple) stuff going on out of combat, and phone-it-in combat contributions. Simpler magic-using classes of all varieties (there are quite a lot of magic-using classes, afterall) that don't have to mess around with spells and slots or Ki points or anything. 5e is through with any sort of player entitlement, so it's really the DM who decides what happens and what doesn't. Heck, that was even true in your example, maybe the DM would never have an enemy provoke an OA, maybe they'd do so all the time. It's a matter of the enemies he placed and he chose to run them. In 5e, it's moreso, the DM can make any feat useful or marginal. You left out later 2e, another prime example (though 4e hardly stuck around long enough to be killed of that particular problem, it was like undetected colon cancer to someone who just had a heart attack, when he realized he'd stepped on a land mine. ;P ) Seriously, though, 'bloat' is a very real, but not inevitable problem. Games like traditional D&D that add options by adding new sub-systems to long lists - lists of spells, classes, sub-classes, spells, races, sub-races, spells, magic items, feats, and, of course, spells - suffer exponentially from bloat. Each new sub-system has potential negative (or synergistic) interactions with each preceding one. It rapidly becomes unmanageable. 3.x DMs dealt with that via 'Core only' games, for instance. Games that are more 'effects based' - Hero System is always the prime example (4e would be more familiar, but to a much lesser extent) - both absorb bloat more easily, and have less impetus to bloat, because you can add new elements without adding new sub-systems. So it's not really a concern if Hero puts out 40 sourcebooks, while it'd be a disaster if WotC did so. I think drawing the line with 'feats' or 'spells' or 'classes' or whatever is not the best way to go about it. What you're trying to model with those game elements would be a better way of seeing when you have 'enough.' Do we have 'enough' ways of modeling spellcasters? 30+ sub-classes, hundreds of spells, several different casting systems with more in the DMG? Yeah, maybe we do. Do we have enough fighter sub-classes? In print, maybe not. Including UA & such, yeah, probably. [/QUOTE]
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