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<blockquote data-quote="HeapThaumaturgist" data-source="post: 2696389" data-attributes="member: 12332">See, I'm, personally, glad that the GM in this case didn't decide to &quot;fix&quot; things &quot;in game&quot; by trying to kill the PCs to show them &quot;who's boss&quot; or that they should lay off this or that power.&nbsp; That just leads to more Us vs. Him thinking.What I'm seeing is an escalation of bad decisions on the Not Original Poster Player End.&nbsp; The guy comes to the table and says:&nbsp; &quot;I want to do THIS, but it was totally broken last edition and even though I know that, and I know we've changed editions, I'd like to play it.&nbsp; There's a version of this class for the new edition that was changed to take into account how abusive it was last edition, but what I REALLY want is the broken one from last edition ... so I don't want the new one.&nbsp; As a 'compromise' I'm willing to play this OTHER 4th-Party class that people say is less broken but is STILL BROKEN ENOUGH.&nbsp; But only if you tell me I HAVE to play it, because I'd really like the one that was admittedly broken.&quot;Then, because the GM doesn't get back to him, he chooses ... the admittedly broken class that isn't even from the edition of the game you're playing.What this says to me is that this player wants to get away with as much as he possibly can.&nbsp; There's the Forbidden Apple on the tree in the room, and there's the Not Forbidden Pear on the table, and he managed to find Forbidden Apple Pie ... what he wants, though ... is that forbidden fruit.&nbsp; And unless somebody is standing there saying &quot;Thou Shalt Not Eat The Fruit!&quot; he's going to go ahead and eat the friggin' fruit.&nbsp; And when he gets chastised for eating the forbidden fruit ... he's going to eat the Forbidden Apple Pie.&nbsp; If he were being adult about it and just wanted a piece of fruit, y'know what?&nbsp; He'd have eaten the PEAR.How this compares to a class from Complete Arcane and the Player's Hand Book, I really don't know.&nbsp; The connection is far away.&nbsp; To &quot;lose trust&quot; here, you'd have to be sort of looking for it.On one hand we have a class NOT EVEN FROM THIS EDITION OF THE GAME ... and a 4th-Hand Fan Class ... and a guy specifically SPURNING the new edition of the class.&nbsp; Basically, he doesn't want to play by the rules.&nbsp; He wants his own rules.On the other hand we've got a new-edition WotC product and stuff from THE CORE BOOK.&nbsp; Apples and Pears.I dunno.&nbsp; If I were to give honest, heartfelt advice?&nbsp; I'd say quit.&nbsp; Tell your friend to quit.&nbsp; Tell your suite-mate to quit.&nbsp; If you guys are going to build up bad blood about a game, then you should let the game go and return to Star Trek reruns.The GM in this case needs some serious GM Boot Camp.&nbsp; Not because he's making decisions in-process, but because he needs to learn his own limits.&nbsp; He needs to start the game in lower levels, maybe 3rd-4th and let it grow from there so he can be more comfortable with things.&nbsp; He needs to play things out the core rules before he changes them.&nbsp; And he needs to keep the players USING the core rules, AS WRITTEN and updated to the edition he is playing in.&nbsp; Once he's comfortable with that, THEN let in the WotC splatbooks.&nbsp; Starting off with 14th level characters and even entertaining the idea of a guy bringing in a fan-built PrC is just really asking to have in-game problems.&nbsp; And they spill out of game sometimes.--fje</blockquote>

[QUOTE="HeapThaumaturgist, post: 2696389, member: 12332"] See, I'm, personally, glad that the GM in this case didn't decide to "fix" things "in game" by trying to kill the PCs to show them "who's boss" or that they should lay off this or that power. That just leads to more Us vs. Him thinking. What I'm seeing is an escalation of bad decisions on the Not Original Poster Player End. The guy comes to the table and says: "I want to do THIS, but it was totally broken last edition and even though I know that, and I know we've changed editions, I'd like to play it. There's a version of this class for the new edition that was changed to take into account how abusive it was last edition, but what I REALLY want is the broken one from last edition ... so I don't want the new one. As a 'compromise' I'm willing to play this OTHER 4th-Party class that people say is less broken but is STILL BROKEN ENOUGH. But only if you tell me I HAVE to play it, because I'd really like the one that was admittedly broken." Then, because the GM doesn't get back to him, he chooses ... the admittedly broken class that isn't even from the edition of the game you're playing. What this says to me is that this player wants to get away with as much as he possibly can. There's the Forbidden Apple on the tree in the room, and there's the Not Forbidden Pear on the table, and he managed to find Forbidden Apple Pie ... what he wants, though ... is that forbidden fruit. And unless somebody is standing there saying "Thou Shalt Not Eat The Fruit!" he's going to go ahead and eat the friggin' fruit. And when he gets chastised for eating the forbidden fruit ... he's going to eat the Forbidden Apple Pie. If he were being adult about it and just wanted a piece of fruit, y'know what? He'd have eaten the PEAR. How this compares to a class from Complete Arcane and the Player's Hand Book, I really don't know. The connection is far away. To "lose trust" here, you'd have to be sort of looking for it. On one hand we have a class NOT EVEN FROM THIS EDITION OF THE GAME ... and a 4th-Hand Fan Class ... and a guy specifically SPURNING the new edition of the class. Basically, he doesn't want to play by the rules. He wants his own rules. On the other hand we've got a new-edition WotC product and stuff from THE CORE BOOK. Apples and Pears. I dunno. If I were to give honest, heartfelt advice? I'd say quit. Tell your friend to quit. Tell your suite-mate to quit. If you guys are going to build up bad blood about a game, then you should let the game go and return to Star Trek reruns. The GM in this case needs some serious GM Boot Camp. Not because he's making decisions in-process, but because he needs to learn his own limits. He needs to start the game in lower levels, maybe 3rd-4th and let it grow from there so he can be more comfortable with things. He needs to play things out the core rules before he changes them. And he needs to keep the players USING the core rules, AS WRITTEN and updated to the edition he is playing in. Once he's comfortable with that, THEN let in the WotC splatbooks. Starting off with 14th level characters and even entertaining the idea of a guy bringing in a fan-built PrC is just really asking to have in-game problems. And they spill out of game sometimes. --fje [/QUOTE]

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