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Message: <blockquote data-quote="drnuncheon" data-source="post: 380335" data-attributes="member: 96">Perhaps I would be more likely to believe you if you showed me what a 20th level rogue could do that the Rog/Wiz (or the Arcane Trickster) could not, instead of just baldly saying "it can't contribute as well as a wizard".Like I went on to say - losing a single level of spellcasting is a significant setback for a wizard, certainly.  For a character that is primarily a rogue (even if they've got more wizard levels), it's not nearly as big of a deal.  If you're going to multiclass a spellcaster in 3e, you can't think of yourself as a spellcaster or else you'll cripple yourself with all the "oh, I lost a level of spells" stuff.  If you think of yourself as a fighter or rogue or whatever with access to spells, and you try to fulfill the role of a fighter or a rogue or whatever instead of that of a wizard, you will be a lot better off.That's how I'm viewing arcane trickster - as a rogue-with-spells, not as a wizard-with-sneak-attack.  Nobody who wants to play a straight wizard is going to go into the class - they're going to take it because they want to play a magical thief.  I think that even with every-other-level caster increases, the arcane trickster could easily contribute just as much as his singleclassed counterparts - provided he was trying to be an excellent rogue and not a half-baked wizard.If the only way you can think of to get sneak attacks with 15 levels of spellcasting is to flank...Improved invisibility. Mislead. Blink. Expeditious Retreat + Spring Attack.  Pump your AC with shield, and/or cast haste and use one of the actions for total defense so they can't hit you.  Suck up the hits with stoneskin.  Set up your own flanking with summon monster so you don't have to worry about the rest of your friends doing what you want them to.  polymorph into a more effective combat form.  Use tenser's transformation. hold monster so they're helpless - not only can you sneak attack, you can coup de grace.And don't forget, sneak attacks can not only be ranged, you can perform them with certain spells.  That ray of enfeeblement is suddenly capable of doing 1d6+7 Str damage and 8d6 negative energy damage.  Not bad for a first level spell (and it's a ranged touch attack too - can't beat that for a high-Dex rogue!)And yes, a 20th level wizard could outclass a rogue too - but they're not likely to if their job is primarily to be an arcane spellcaster.  If they focus all their spells on substituting for a rogue, they will be a poor wizard.  A rogue-with-wizard-levels focusing all his spells on being a better rogue, on the other hand, makes a lot more sense. J</blockquote>

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