[legal question/software] Dundjinni maps in published products?

[Mouseferatu]

Hey, folks. I dithered about which forum to put this in, but since I'm looking for semi-legal advice, and also other publishers' experience, I figured this was the place to go.

Lions Den is looking at developing a small line of products that would include maps. Now, if this were a major release, or a one-time thing, we'd hire Ed Bourelle or someone, and call it done. But for smaller and more frequent maps, we really feel like we ought to at least look into doing it ourselves.

From what I've seen, Dundjinni produces some pretty nifty looking maps. The thing is, I seem to recall reading somewhere that they frowned on people using Dundjinni-crafted maps in published products.

Now, leaving aside the question of whether they actually have any say in the matter once their product has been purchased--I have no idea if they'd actually have a legal leg to stand on--the truth is, I'm not interested in pissing anyone off, or violating anyone's user terms. So, my question is, do I correctly remember that legal issues prevent (or at least impede) the use of Dundjinni maps in published products? And if I do remember correctly, do they offer any options for negotiating exceptions to such restrictions?

(Frankly, I have no intention of purchasing Dundjinni if I can't use it for professional reasons. The map-making programs I already have aren't good enough for publication, but they serve well enough in my own campaigns. So I can't just look at the legal myself, since I don't own the product.)

 

[HellHound]

You can use Dundjinni maps, as long as they include no dundjinni map icons or graphics. They -do- have the lagal right to stop us, unfortunately, as they are not selling us the map pack graphics, only the software to manipulate them and the rights to use those graphics for personal use only. It's the same as buying a video game and then trying to use the graphics from the video game in your commercial release.

So, you can use the software, but you have to draw all the map elements yourself.

I've leanred how to do Ed Bourelle - style floor panels finally, so I could use tiles of my own creation with dundjinni, as long as I used none of the tiles in the base product or graphics packs.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You can use Dundjinni maps, as long as they include no dundjinni map icons or graphics. They -do- have the lagal right to stop us, unfortunately, as they are not selling us the map pack graphics, only the software to manipulate them and the rights to use those graphics for personal use only. It's the same as buying a video game and then trying to use the graphics from the video game in your commercial release.

So, you can use the software, but you have to draw all the map elements yourself.

I've leanred how to do Ed Bourelle - style floor panels finally, so I could use tiles of my own creation with dundjinni, as long as I used none of the tiles in the base product or graphics packs.

Lovely. :\

That pretty much rules out me using Dundjinni on a professional level. I haven't the skill to create my own tiles or icons, the software on which to do it, or the time and energy to spend on it.

Ah, well. I appreciate the advice--and the $60 you've saved me.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Lovely. :\

That pretty much rules out me using Dundjinni on a professional level. I haven't the skill to create my own tiles or icons, the software on which to do it, or the time and energy to spend on it.

Ah, well. I appreciate the advice--and the $60 you've saved me.

What I have done is to keep on top of the Dundjinni User Art downloads, and to use it along with Photoshop for my map layouts.

Dundjinni runs like a wounded slug, anyway. You don't want it.

But much of the User Art is actually quite good.

 

[TheLe]

I emailed the Dunjinni sales staff concerning my questions, and it took them over 3 weeks to respond. When I sent them followup questions, they did not respond for another week -- when they finally did respond, they only did so because I send a third email telling them that I had 3 days to make a purchasing decision and I threatened to purchase a competing product.

After reviewing everything, I found their licensing to be restrictive and not friendly to publishers at all (not to mention just plain stupid). I ended up going with Campaign Cartographer 2, because they have no restrictions at all for publishers (I called the creators, Profantasty, and talked to someone in person -- an option I did not have with the Dundjinni people at all).

I wanted something out of the box, and I got that with CC2, not the ascinine "you can buy this product but can't use any of the images that comes with it" bullcrap that Dundjinni fed me.

Here was the official reply I got from them:

1. You may publish your Dundjinni creation as long as that work contains nothing but art created by you. That is, the art that comes with Dundjinni is restricted from commercial publication.

2. The exception to the above rule is the Classic Art Pack. You may commercially publish your work using this Dundjinni art pack.

3. You may approach us to extend you an individual license. To date, we have been very restrictive on this sort of use. Monte Cook and the GDW for Warhammer are the only two entities we have extended a license to.

The infringement quiz! Let's look at 7 examples.

1. Beany creates a map and an adventure from the Wild Art Pack, prints it out, drives to his local hobby store on a Thursday night and sits down with his friends to GM the greatest adventure of his life. Infringement or no?

Answer: Not infringement. Beany can of course print and play with his creation as he likes. Where the rules start to come into place is if Beany desires to publish his creation. Meaning Beany wants to make money off of his effort.

2. Joe creates a map using the Castle Art Pack. He converts his creation to PDF and sells his map and adventure on RPGNow.com Infringement or no?

Answer: Infringement. Joe has violated the Dundjinni agreement. Joe cannot commercially publish his work if it contains Dundjinni art.

3. Juan the artist has created a map which contains only his (and other user's) objects and textures. Juan converts his effort to iron-ons for underwear, approaches Calvin Klein, and sells his creation. It's all the rave on Madison Avenue! Infringement or no?

Answer: Not infringement. Event though Juan used the Dundjinni software to make his design, Juan has created something that does not contain Dundjinni art. It only contains his art, and the art of his community friends. His underwear empire will flourish. For examples of user art, visit the Dundjinni forums.

4. Endugu has created a map using the Dundjinni Classic Art Pack. Endugu approaches Wizard's of the Coast, and they in turn publish Endugu's creation as the next Eberron adventure. Infringement or no?

Answer: Not infringement. Since Endugu used only art from the Dundjinni Classic Pack, he is okay. The Classic Art Pack is the one exception to the rules presented here. You can use the Classic Art Pack and publish your efforts as you see fit. Endugu joins the ranks of Ernie Gygax and Zeb Cook.

5. Endugu's sister, Kamchatca, creates a map using the Classic Art Pack and one skull from the Dungeon Art Pack. She also approaches Wizards' of the Coast, in hopes to publishing an Eberron sequel. Infringement or no?

Answer: Infringement. ANY art used from any Dundjinni art pack other than Classic violates the agreement. Even one skull.

6. Hooty McSpoon makes a map using the Dungeon & Temple Art packs. Hooty works long hours and completes his entire creation, map and adventure and all, and converts it to a PDF. Hooty then approaches Fluid, asking permission if he can publish his work by selling it on RPGNow. Fluid says it is okay, as Hooty is one talented dude, and Fluid wants to support talented dudes. Fluid signs a release form with Hooty, and Hooty sells his PDF adventure on RPGNow. Infringement or no?

Answer: Not infringement. Hooty received special permission from Fluid to publish his work. To date, Fluid has signed this special release on two occasions: Once with Monty Cook, whose PDF adventures now use Dundjinni art, and once with Green Ronin, whose Warhammer RPG book uses Dundjinni art. Fluid welcomes all completed submissions, and is selective in their approval process.

7: Borax makes a map using all Dundjinni art packs and posts it to his personal website as a digital download for free. Infringement or no?

Answer: Not infringement, BUT Borax must place the Dundjinni compass rose art on his map. He must also put the phrase, "map made with Dundjinni.www.dunjinni.com" near the download link. The compass Rose art can be found
here: http://www.dundjinni.com/info/updates.htm

And you know what? They still ignored my other crucial questions, such as "if I buy the artpack, how can I tell which objects comes from the art pack (which I can use for publishing) and which objects comes with the default program (which I can NOT use for publishing).

That stuff just pisses me off to high heavan.

I spent over $250 the next day for the Campaign Cartographer 2 set, partly because I was pissed at Dundjinni for being so obtuse, but mostly becasuse CC2 gave me exactly what I wanted.

~Le

 

[Mouseferatu]

Wow. What a crappy set-up. Even if I'd been thinking of buying it for home use, this would turn me off it. I can't stand people who make things difficult for no valid reason.*

As far as CC2, I have an older version of it, and it works for home use. But I simply don't have the artistic skill to make professional-looking maps with it, no matter how hard I try. I'd hoped to use Dundjinni because I need a drag-n-drop interface that can create professional-looking (or semi-pro-looking) maps.

*(I suppose it's possible they have a "valid reason" that I can't think of, but I can't begin to imagine what it might be. It's not about protecting rights; a simple "If you use our stuff you must credit the program and clearly indicate which maps yo made with it" would suffice. Heck, it would probably increase their sales.)

 

[trancejeremy]

That's an awfully snarky email to sent to customers (or potential ones).



Anyway, apparently this is the art pack that can be used for publishing

http://www.dunjinni.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=19

It's apparently based on the old style modules, and is somewhat crude looking, so probably not actually useful for publishing...but easy to tell from the others, as it's in B&W and looks hand drawn