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Legal Ready action triggers and order of resolution
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<blockquote data-quote="ThePolarBear" data-source="post: 6912011" data-attributes="member: 6857451"><p>While an "attack with a melee weapon requires a melee weapon", but it's not necessarly a melee attack. See my point now?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So i will ask... where does it say a reaction can? "If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction." So we know for sure it can interrupt a TURN, be we do not know if it can interrupt an action, right? I think something important like that would be stated there, if it could apply to all reactions! </p><p></p><p> Let's look at the ONLY 2 examples of reactions that DO interrupt something...</p><p>Counterspell and AoO.</p><p></p><p>AoO : "The attack interrupts the provoking creature's movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach."</p><p>Counterspell : " You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell."</p><p></p><p>Good! 2 Cases in that can interrupt! Let's look at another! I'll let you guess which one it is...</p><p></p><p>"When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature."</p><p></p><p>And suddenly there's no interruption going on, except for the turn.</p><p></p><p>So, BY FACTS, unless there's a specific description the rule holds... <u><em><strong>You cannot interrupt anything unless a specific description states so</strong></em></u>. Are we clear now?</p><p></p><p>Good, because the other point is that the Ready action let's you fire your prepared Action (in combat) or move for 30' iirc using your reaction. What makes use of a reaction able to interrupt anything? The fact that you use a reaction to interrupt a TURN. And that's it. That said, you are using a reaction, but what you are taking is the Action you prepared.</p><p></p><p> And this how exactly relates to the rules? It doesn't since the police isn't taking the "Ready" action, and is not in a tabletop game. So, define clearly "go for the gun" please. Because the rule says so.</p><p></p><p></p><p> i see no mention of start, end or even casting. You are checked BEFORE the Action is taken. If you had no materials, you would not take the action, and your trigger, no matter what will not fire.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>No. We know the components are part of the spellcasting process. We do not know if it's in the beginning, in the end, or anywhere in between. WE HAVE NO CLARITY. We just know that we are prevented from taking the Action if we miss some of them or there are condition that prevents their appearance. Your "before" and "after" are absolutelty arbitrary, and a RULING, not a RULE.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, we know that the casting of a spell is different from the spell effect because one is an action, and the other is part of the description of what that action actually does. By your reasoning, you could interrupt between the attacks and the actual damage caused by reading an action. Because one is the action and the other is in the description of what an action does. The fact that one is also the outcome, it's absolutely IRRELEVANT, since "the trigger has to end" includes everything in the description of the action interrupted.</p><p></p><p> Counterspell allows you to interrupt the trigger, a Ready action EXPLICITLY states YOU CAN'T. Providing the components is, yet again NOT A CLEAR TRIGGER, so invalid for readied actions, since we do not know WHEN it does happen. We know that it happens as part of the spellcasting process. We know we must have them to take the Cast a Spell Action, we do not know when. You might state your RULING, but again, that's not the RULE.</p><p></p><p> The fact that the spell effect might be a trigger is nowhere in question. The problem is that the providing the components is in question, as we do not know WHEN. IT'S NOT A CLEAR TRIGGER. If we take the Action as a whole, the spell effect is still part of the Cast a Spell Action, as it's part of the spell you are casting. As are the components required.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I hate quoting myself, but...</p><p></p><p>Hopefully you understand that i'm using "action" instead of "occurrence" as a colloquial term. Not the best choice prehaps, but i'm not a native speaker. Does it change anything? No, i never meant Action in Combat, and hopefully we are clear now that i stated it. Twice.</p><p></p><p>Also, pulling a lever is an Action in Combat. The Use an Object action. And let's skip the fact that you might be able to talk even without reading the action "i talk to say x"... (because you have to state what are you going to say when you take the Ready action) because i do not want to go check if those are free actions that can be taken outside of your turn or not, and with a reaction or not, by the rules. Not the point of the thread.</p><p></p><p> First part, see above and last post. Second part, no it isn't. It might be a RULING by my part, but so is YOURS. Mine, at least, has backups.</p><p></p><p> And we AGREE ON THIS. I won't quote me again, so go back to my last post and how i said the RULES stated one thing, and MY RULING was different, in regards to "drawing a weapon". I do not agree with you in your breakdown of the "casting a spell", since it's arbitrary on something that it's unclear to begin with, and thus NOT A VALID TRIGGER. As is the "go for the gun" example.</p><p></p><p> I asked for quotes, and did not recieve anything but something completely unrelated, like i did for Plaguescarred last post. Mine was a honest mistake, i corrected it in this post. You still have not described HOW, in what steps, which sequence of actions comes first, what are the gestures, what does the fox... err.. the caster say, how much time does it take... you know, HOW. And the rules where this is stated as "rule". Not what are the requirements to cast.</p><p></p><p> We also have Counterspell, that we know only asks for a spell beign cast, that is not a readied action, so does not follow the same rules, that is also an "exception" to the reaction rules, stating clearly that it can interrupt an action while reactions are only stated to be able to interrupt turns. Apples to Oranges.</p><p></p><p> <strong><em><u>YOU ARE NOT IN CHARGE</u></em></strong> in relation to what is right and what is wrong. You can hear my opinion, discuss with me and try to understand what i mean. You can make an opinion of me, you can choose to ignore what i say, disagree with me and have the option to state your disagreement. You are under law, rules of the forum, moderator action and many other things. I'm not under your scritiny as if your word was law. I'll try to stay as civil as possible, i might fail to do so, voluntarly or not, and you have the option to ask me to moderate myself and to report my behaviour. You have many right, but you are not in charge.</p><p></p><p> The trigger for counterspell is "a spell that is being cast". I think this is the twelfth... twelf... 12th (how do you spell it?) time i'm going to say this: Counterspell is not a "Ready" action. It does not follow the same rules. It states in its description that it's allowed to interrupt a spell that is being cast, and this does not make anything else but Counterspell able to interrupt spells being cast. It still has nothing to do with your separation of components, spell effects... See above.</p><p></p><p> Not what i asked for.</p><p></p><p></p><p> See above. As i never said this. I used trigger and action interchangeably, true, but i NEVER stated that it required an Action, or an Action in Combat. and i meant action as "something you do", and thought it was clear that i did not imply "Action in Combat", expecially since last post, when i said it straight after your first comment.</p><p></p><p>Hopefully this makes my points clear. I think we should refrain to further take what it seems to be more or less a back and forth between us three here in the public thread unless there's some point you think there's something else to be discussed in this thread of importance of the topic at hand. I feel like we have been derailing somewhat (or a whole lot) and my posts in particular are becoming longer and longer. If you want, we can continue with private messaging or something else even on the points that hav eno bearing here <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>And yeah i Googled Twelfth.</p><p></p><p>Edit: added a couple of words</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ThePolarBear, post: 6912011, member: 6857451"] While an "attack with a melee weapon requires a melee weapon", but it's not necessarly a melee attack. See my point now? So i will ask... where does it say a reaction can? "If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction." So we know for sure it can interrupt a TURN, be we do not know if it can interrupt an action, right? I think something important like that would be stated there, if it could apply to all reactions! Let's look at the ONLY 2 examples of reactions that DO interrupt something... Counterspell and AoO. AoO : "The attack interrupts the provoking creature's movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach." Counterspell : " You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell." Good! 2 Cases in that can interrupt! Let's look at another! I'll let you guess which one it is... "When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature." And suddenly there's no interruption going on, except for the turn. So, BY FACTS, unless there's a specific description the rule holds... [U][I][B]You cannot interrupt anything unless a specific description states so[/B][/I][/U]. Are we clear now? Good, because the other point is that the Ready action let's you fire your prepared Action (in combat) or move for 30' iirc using your reaction. What makes use of a reaction able to interrupt anything? The fact that you use a reaction to interrupt a TURN. And that's it. That said, you are using a reaction, but what you are taking is the Action you prepared. And this how exactly relates to the rules? It doesn't since the police isn't taking the "Ready" action, and is not in a tabletop game. So, define clearly "go for the gun" please. Because the rule says so. i see no mention of start, end or even casting. You are checked BEFORE the Action is taken. If you had no materials, you would not take the action, and your trigger, no matter what will not fire. No. We know the components are part of the spellcasting process. We do not know if it's in the beginning, in the end, or anywhere in between. WE HAVE NO CLARITY. We just know that we are prevented from taking the Action if we miss some of them or there are condition that prevents their appearance. Your "before" and "after" are absolutelty arbitrary, and a RULING, not a RULE. No, we know that the casting of a spell is different from the spell effect because one is an action, and the other is part of the description of what that action actually does. By your reasoning, you could interrupt between the attacks and the actual damage caused by reading an action. Because one is the action and the other is in the description of what an action does. The fact that one is also the outcome, it's absolutely IRRELEVANT, since "the trigger has to end" includes everything in the description of the action interrupted. Counterspell allows you to interrupt the trigger, a Ready action EXPLICITLY states YOU CAN'T. Providing the components is, yet again NOT A CLEAR TRIGGER, so invalid for readied actions, since we do not know WHEN it does happen. We know that it happens as part of the spellcasting process. We know we must have them to take the Cast a Spell Action, we do not know when. You might state your RULING, but again, that's not the RULE. The fact that the spell effect might be a trigger is nowhere in question. The problem is that the providing the components is in question, as we do not know WHEN. IT'S NOT A CLEAR TRIGGER. If we take the Action as a whole, the spell effect is still part of the Cast a Spell Action, as it's part of the spell you are casting. As are the components required. I hate quoting myself, but... Hopefully you understand that i'm using "action" instead of "occurrence" as a colloquial term. Not the best choice prehaps, but i'm not a native speaker. Does it change anything? No, i never meant Action in Combat, and hopefully we are clear now that i stated it. Twice. Also, pulling a lever is an Action in Combat. The Use an Object action. And let's skip the fact that you might be able to talk even without reading the action "i talk to say x"... (because you have to state what are you going to say when you take the Ready action) because i do not want to go check if those are free actions that can be taken outside of your turn or not, and with a reaction or not, by the rules. Not the point of the thread. First part, see above and last post. Second part, no it isn't. It might be a RULING by my part, but so is YOURS. Mine, at least, has backups. And we AGREE ON THIS. I won't quote me again, so go back to my last post and how i said the RULES stated one thing, and MY RULING was different, in regards to "drawing a weapon". I do not agree with you in your breakdown of the "casting a spell", since it's arbitrary on something that it's unclear to begin with, and thus NOT A VALID TRIGGER. As is the "go for the gun" example. I asked for quotes, and did not recieve anything but something completely unrelated, like i did for Plaguescarred last post. Mine was a honest mistake, i corrected it in this post. You still have not described HOW, in what steps, which sequence of actions comes first, what are the gestures, what does the fox... err.. the caster say, how much time does it take... you know, HOW. And the rules where this is stated as "rule". Not what are the requirements to cast. We also have Counterspell, that we know only asks for a spell beign cast, that is not a readied action, so does not follow the same rules, that is also an "exception" to the reaction rules, stating clearly that it can interrupt an action while reactions are only stated to be able to interrupt turns. Apples to Oranges. [B][I][U]YOU ARE NOT IN CHARGE[/U][/I][/B] in relation to what is right and what is wrong. You can hear my opinion, discuss with me and try to understand what i mean. You can make an opinion of me, you can choose to ignore what i say, disagree with me and have the option to state your disagreement. You are under law, rules of the forum, moderator action and many other things. I'm not under your scritiny as if your word was law. I'll try to stay as civil as possible, i might fail to do so, voluntarly or not, and you have the option to ask me to moderate myself and to report my behaviour. You have many right, but you are not in charge. The trigger for counterspell is "a spell that is being cast". I think this is the twelfth... twelf... 12th (how do you spell it?) time i'm going to say this: Counterspell is not a "Ready" action. It does not follow the same rules. It states in its description that it's allowed to interrupt a spell that is being cast, and this does not make anything else but Counterspell able to interrupt spells being cast. It still has nothing to do with your separation of components, spell effects... See above. Not what i asked for. See above. As i never said this. I used trigger and action interchangeably, true, but i NEVER stated that it required an Action, or an Action in Combat. and i meant action as "something you do", and thought it was clear that i did not imply "Action in Combat", expecially since last post, when i said it straight after your first comment. Hopefully this makes my points clear. I think we should refrain to further take what it seems to be more or less a back and forth between us three here in the public thread unless there's some point you think there's something else to be discussed in this thread of importance of the topic at hand. I feel like we have been derailing somewhat (or a whole lot) and my posts in particular are becoming longer and longer. If you want, we can continue with private messaging or something else even on the points that hav eno bearing here ;) And yeah i Googled Twelfth. Edit: added a couple of words [/QUOTE]
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