Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6912371" data-attributes="member: 6799649">That's a lot of words which only supports things that we agree on (cannot interrupt trigger) which you then use as 'evidence' of something those words do not show (cannot interrupt actions).Cause must come before effect. Therefore, 'trigger' must occur before 'reaction'. So far so good.But the 'trigger' is 'VSM components', not 'spell effect'.By having the spellcasting process (the VSM components) as our trigger, our 'reaction' to that trigger can happen after that trigger (in accordance with the above), and that reaction still occurs before the subsequent spell effect.Balderdash! Just as before, 'cause' must come before 'effect'. If the VSM components are not completed successfully for whatever reason, then they have not been provided, therefore the spell fails. The actual quote is, "If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell".This does not mean that if you are able to provide them, you don't need to bother actually providing them! You have to actually provide them!The verbal component is the chanting of mystic words. "The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion."Lets imagine that the mystic words are, "My country, 'tis of thee!" Not only must these words be spoken aloud, they must also have a precise pitch and resonance. Therefore, until you have uttered the final word 'thee', you have not yet provided the verbal component. Therefore, if you only get as far as, "My count..." before being hit with a readied action, at this point you have not provided the verbal component so the spell has not yet been cast.The somatic component is a specific combination of gestures. "Spellcasting might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have the free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures."Therefore, until the final gesture has been made, the somatic component has not yet been provided and the spell has not yet been cast. Therefore, if the caster is only halfway through the intricate set of gestures when his hands are amputated, he cannot complete (provide) the somatic component, and the spell will not be cast!So yes, the VSM components must not only begin, they must be completed before the spell even begins! It is literally impossible for the spell to begin before the components are complete, therefore the two things (casting and effect) cannot overlap. First 'casting', then 'effect'.Which means that if you choose 'casting' as your trigger, this trigger does not need to be 'interrupted' in order for your reaction to occur before the spell duration begins.Furthermore, as each spell has a unique set of words and a unique set of gestures, they are identifiable, perceivable as belonging to a particular spell. This allows an observer to tell what spell is being cast while these components are being performed but before they are completed, although the observer might fail to recognise it in time (before the effect begins), which is where an Arcana check comes in.These components have a beginning, middle, and end. When someone begins to cast a spell, this is perceivable even if you do not know which particular spell it would be. So yes you can have 'begins casting' as your trigger, and when he has 'begun casting' then the trigger has happened. Your reaction to that does not interrupt the beginning of the casting so it is legal. And since the 'beginning' has already happened, the 'beginning' is already complete. The reaction can then occur before the 'completion' of the casting, and therefore the start of the spell effect, without interrupting the trigger in any way.No it bloody well doesn't!There is the 'casting' of a spell, which is the performing of the VSM components, and there is the 'effect' of the spell. 'Casting Time' refers to the VSM components; 'Duration' refers to the spell effect.The Casting Time occurs before the Duration even begins, as proved above. During this Casting Time, the spell hasn't even started yet! It is a mundane process, unaffected by what the resulting spell might do.For example, if the spell effect turns you invisible, you are not yet invisible as you are chanting the magic words and performing the mystic gestures required to cast it! The invisibility, the spell effect, does not affect the casting process of that spell.Casting Time might be one or more Actions, rounds, minutes or hours. It might be a bonus action. It might be a reaction, but without exception every spell whose casting time is a reaction also tells you what the trigger for that reaction is. We know that this Casting Time must occur before the spell even begins, therefore that not-yet-in-existence spell can have no influence whatsoever on the trigger that occurs to cast it.Therefore, any trigger for any spell with a casting time of 1 reaction must be a valid trigger with or without the existence of any spell, even its future self.The trigger for counterspell is, "when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". Therefore, 'seeing a creature casting a spell' is a valid trigger no matter what it is a trigger for! The fact that it may be a trigger for counterspell is neither here nor there; the trigger is not part of the magic of the spell!The reason that counterspell works at all is that the trigger (spellcasting being perceived) occurs before the spell duration even begins. The trigger (spellcasting) is not itself interrupted. The sequence of events is: trigger (spellcasting) -> reaction (counterspell) -> spell effect (if it still can).So we know, for a cast-iron fact, that the sequence: trigger (spellcasting) -> reaction (Readied action) -> spell effect (if it still can) is also a valid sequence.Counterspell is not an exception to the rules for either valid triggers or for the timing of the reaction.There is nothing in the Ready rules which states that a readied action cannot interrupt an 'action'; you made that up! What it says is that it cannot interrupt its 'trigger', and you already agree that the trigger need not be an actual Action In Combat. We merely choose a perceivable trigger that occurs before the part we don't want to happen even begins. So we don't choose 'when a spell begins' as our trigger if we don't want the spell to begin! We choose 'when I see a creature casting a spell' as the trigger, and we know that this is a valid trigger, that it refers to the VSM casting process not the spell effect, and that the reaction occurs after the trigger (spellcasting) but before the spell effect begins; and we know this is how it works because this is how counterspell is able to function; its trigger conditions are not altered by the magic of counterspell.</blockquote>

Verification