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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5760773" data-attributes="member: 48965">I honestly want something less gamist than 4e (whether that's a truely narativist game or a simulationist bent game doesn't really matter to me that much at this point).  Again, I think most of the dislike I have for 4e centers around the fact that, IMO, it's blatantly gamist and in the course of playing and running the game this causes all kinds of things to jump out at me and my players as being designed purely for the game part of 4e. Now whether you want to call this phenomenon immersion breakage, un-realism, or whatever catchy phrase is the new way of refering to it, it happens in 4e for me much more than in previous editions that I have played and I don't particularly care for it.  Furthermore, I honestly think, from recent posts, articles, blogs, etc. that even many of 4e's designers and developers are aware of it or at least understand what it is many are turned off by in 4e's design... contrary to what most fans of 4e claim.</blockquote>