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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5766432" data-attributes="member: 22779">I'd like a lot better than 50:50 considering the consequences for failure.Look, we'll flip a coin.  If you win, I give you five dollars.  But, before we flip, I get to punch you in the mouth.  Plus, if you fail I get to kick you in the nads and the step on your ankle while you're on the ground.Fair deal?  Didn't think so.  The reward is nowhere near good enough for the risk.Your quibbles are just that, quibbles.  You're actually arguing my point for me by reducing the number of possible times it would succeed - need an unarmed opponent, need surprise, etc.And, let's not forget, that this is actually LESS attractive the higher level my character is.  The odds don't really change because it's stat, not level based, but now I'm giving up additional attacks or actions to do something that has a low chance of success and high penalties.Now, obviously my players are different than BryonD's.  I have no idea how to motivate people to be quite frankly that unaware of the game.  Look, if the opponent is one size larger than you, you might as well not even bother trying.  It's got both the size bonus against you and in all likelihood stronger than you.  If your character is small, you might as well forget about it at all.  Even if the opponent is medium, many medium creatures have a fairly high strength score.  A base orc has a 17 Str - +3 to it's base check.  Even against this, you're not much better than 50% at best.  And probably lower.Again, the chance of success just isn't worth it.  I've never actually seen bull rush used in 3e.  Apparently BryonD has, but, again, his case is very different than mine because his players are, in my mind anyway, not rational actors.  That or they like rolling up new characters a lot.This basically illustrates why I have such a problem with process based Simulation.  It makes any action that is not expressly permitted so difficult that it's just not worth it and players IME don't even try.</blockquote>

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