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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KidSnide" data-source="post: 5731900" data-attributes="member: 54710">I'm quoting from KM not to call him out specifically, but as an example of a meme I see in this thread...Yes, as an initial matter, of course it's the character that is swinging a sword against the dragon.  Players don't swing swords against monsters.  Players don't pick locks, cast fireball or turn undead either.  But everything is a combination of player skill and character ability.  Combat is a mixture of character abilities (to see whether you hit) and player skill in tactics and party coordination.  Even a lame RAW skill challenge generally involves some marginal player skill in figuring out how to apply your character's best skills to the situation at hand.If you think player skill isn't a part of every D&D game, then I really don't know what game you're playing.  I'm not sure that anyone actually disagrees with this, but I think it's important to point out.To get back to the Clash of the Titans example, I agree that character abilities could be used.  Certainly, you could use a knowledge check to get a list of monsters and magic that can kill a kraken and maybe skill checks would help you find them.  But - at some point - any decent game is going to make the players actually think about what's going on in the game world.  For example, a player might think "gee, a medusa head seems a lot easier than stealing the Wand of Orcus".  I suppose a DM could provide an Int check to help the players figure out that the Head of Medusa is a better strategy than the Wand of Orcus, but that seems like an awful way to play D&D.  (There's no badfunwrong here - it just seems awful to me.)Yes, character skills are useful ways of distributing game relevant information to the players, but there's a point when the players have to consider the situation and decide what to do.  90+% of the time, that's not about character abilities.  I can't imagine playing a mystery or a political game by skill challenge alone.  The fun of a mystery is the deduction, and the fun of a political game is the role-playing and scheming.  I suppose you could run these entirely with character abilities, but why would you want to?Isn't making interesting decisions in a fantasy world kind of the point of playing D&D?  Aren't these decisions more interesting if some of them are outside the bounds of the character sheet?I'm always up for learning how other people play the game, but for me, this isn't even a question.  Challenges outside the character sheet are an essential part of the D&D games I play in.  I really don't understand how you could remove it.  It would be like watching the Olympics where the athletes only compete on Wii.  Maybe you could recognize it, but what would be the point?-KS</blockquote>

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