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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LurkAway" data-source="post: 5747214" data-attributes="member: 6685059">I was just re-reading this. Although some have been hinting at levels being incompatible with a simulationist game, I've avoided thinking about eliminating levels, because I believe I read an article by Mearls that levels was one of the sacred cows of D&D (along with ability scores, etc.) that were essential to the game.As we discussed, in 3E, levels primarily represent combat experience, and in 4E, they represent adventuring experience. Let's call it a heroic Combat Level and an Adventuring Level, respectively.One thing I didn't like about 3E NPC rules was that it was applying Combat Levels (with attack bonuses, hp, etc.) to a non-combatant. Really, the level should be indicative of their life experience. A blacksmith should have a Blacksmith Level where 1 is apprentice and 5 is Master and you get x skill points per level and maybe a Str bonus. That's just a theoretical example, I'm not advocating actual Blacksmith Levels except maybe in a complicated game (although using that as a general guideline for NPC creation might be useful, I'm not sure).Some questions - if a scrawny rogue is hanging back at every battle and allowing everyone else to do all the fighting, does he get xp towards a Combat Level? If a fat scholary wizard never helps anybody around the dungeon and keeps a nose buried in his book, does he get xp towards an Adventuring Level? If the game is sandboxy, is it justified to eliminate scrawny rogues and fat scholarly wizards from the game, or do you allow them as viable characters? If the latter, does the player want to receive a Combat Level or Adventuring Level and why?All this musing is to suggest to me that a truly sandboxy Lore edition might be quite different than the Legends edition, not just by toggling of core rules, but by toggling the quality of levels as well.So the Legends edition definitely uses Adventuring Levels as an extension of 4E. Published adventures are designed for optimal focus around super heroic Adventuring Levels.For a sandboxy Lore, maybe you put a cap on Combat Level like E6. Maybe you allow the player to choose 2 bundles/add-ons with each level -- every level, it is recommended to pick up one Combat bundle and your Class/Power Source bundle, but a player might choose something else (with appropriate limitations). Maybe the DM hands out bundles depending on what you experienced in the narrative. Maybe if you completed an adventure without any combat whatsoever, you don't get to pick up a Combat bundle at all.If Lore is not sandboxy, then what kind of Levels and pre-defined type of narrative is going to capture a segment of the market beyond 4E?Just brainstorming here, because I think the question of what is a level is quite relevant to what is a simulationist/immersive game.</blockquote>

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