Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Legends & Lore 03.10.2014: Full-spellcasting Bard
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6274115" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>This is the symptom of a few problems:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> You can say the same thing about almost any class, especially those that are "hybrids." What is a paladin if not a fighter/cleric? What is a cleric if not a fighter/mage with buffs and heals? What is a druid if not a mage or cleric with a specific spell list? I think it's pretty clear that the bard -- this kind of bard -- has its own D&D identity that makes it viable as an independent class.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> The "rogue" is a class so broad as to be meaningless. Literally every non- or lightly- magical person who doesn't wear heavy armor has been shoehorned into the rogue at one point or another. So saying the rogue can handle this archetype is like saying everyone who uses weapons should be a fighter or everyone who uses magic should be a wizard. Sure, if we were going for a limited number of classes. But the Bard as I described it earns its class by being distinct from the Bilbo Baggins/Grey Mouser/James Bond that the D&D rogue has been part of.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> That there should be a distinct Bard class is probably not at issue by WotC. What is at issue is what form that class should take in 5e. The full-spellcasting bard doesn't appear to satisfy what I want a bard to be (which is, in part, <strong>not</strong> a master of arcane magic).</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In what way does a full spell list make the Bard a jack-of-all-trades better at versatility and unexpected combos than a broader ability to pull on more elements?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can't imagine that would make people who want to play Enchanter wizards very happy. It also wouldn't make <strong>me</strong> very happy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's part of why in my mind, the bard is the master of "the whole being greater than the sum of the parts." Bards take a little bit of magic, a little bit of combat, and a little bit of flourish, and make the harmonious union of the three a lot stronger than any one element can be on its own. You can be a druid/mage/fighter/rogue and be broad and unfocused, OR, you can be a Bard, and be focused on your versatility.</p><p></p><p>It might help to characterize it in terms of what it might look like in my mind:</p><p></p><p>You've got a <strong>druid</strong> who is good at plant an animal magic. At higher levels, it becomes awesome at controlling plants and animals, making trees walk and befriending monstrosities and turning into wooly rhinoceroses. The ultimate nature warrior!</p><p></p><p>You've got a <strong>thief</strong> who is good at stealth and skullduggery. They bluff and hide and do a little sneaky biz. At high levels, they become awesome at stealth and skullduggery, being nigh invisible and effortlessly successful. </p><p></p><p>You've got a <strong>fighter</strong> who is good with weapons and armor. They hit things hard, and take hard hits. At high levels, they become nearly invincible, with a sword arm that decapitates giants. </p><p></p><p>You've got a <strong>wizard</strong> who is tapped into the mysterious otherworld. At low levels, they're twinkling lights and magical force, at high levels, they're turning enemies into toads and transcending dimensions. </p><p></p><p>You've got the <strong>bard</strong>. They do nature magic, they are tapped into the otherworld, they are skilled at skullduggery, and they're handy with a blade. But what makes the bard special is their ability to blend these.</p><p></p><p>They're not just good with a blade. Their sword-slices are enchanted with eldritch magic. They duel with the land itself aiding them. They fight with a skillful flourish that makes them unpredictable. They blend their disparate skills into being an awesome warrior.</p><p></p><p>They're not just handy with some tweety birds. Their bond with nature is deep and mystical. They transform creatures with their enchantments, they fight with the speed of a hummingbird, climb with the agility of a squirrel, they know the pulse and needs of the natural world.</p><p></p><p>They're not just dabblers in the arcane. They know the arcane energy that lies within every body movement and sound, and that magic makes their blades sparkle, makes their eyes twinkle, and makes life bend to their will. </p><p></p><p>They're not just skillful charmers and dilletantes in lore. They use words to hypnotize, to speak with the wild creatures of the world. They know the legend they are forging with their blade is stronger than the armor of their enemies, and that gives them power.</p><p></p><p>The best D&D bards are things like the Harpers, or Elan, and these things are not about magic. They're about using magic as one skill among many. </p><p></p><p>I imagine the kind of bard I want is probably going to be somehow possible in 5e, but I'd like to know why they thought full spellcasting was The Thing That Was Good. It's not clear to me from here how that helps.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6274115, member: 2067"] This is the symptom of a few problems: [LIST] [*] You can say the same thing about almost any class, especially those that are "hybrids." What is a paladin if not a fighter/cleric? What is a cleric if not a fighter/mage with buffs and heals? What is a druid if not a mage or cleric with a specific spell list? I think it's pretty clear that the bard -- this kind of bard -- has its own D&D identity that makes it viable as an independent class. [*] The "rogue" is a class so broad as to be meaningless. Literally every non- or lightly- magical person who doesn't wear heavy armor has been shoehorned into the rogue at one point or another. So saying the rogue can handle this archetype is like saying everyone who uses weapons should be a fighter or everyone who uses magic should be a wizard. Sure, if we were going for a limited number of classes. But the Bard as I described it earns its class by being distinct from the Bilbo Baggins/Grey Mouser/James Bond that the D&D rogue has been part of. [*] That there should be a distinct Bard class is probably not at issue by WotC. What is at issue is what form that class should take in 5e. The full-spellcasting bard doesn't appear to satisfy what I want a bard to be (which is, in part, [B]not[/B] a master of arcane magic). [/LIST] In what way does a full spell list make the Bard a jack-of-all-trades better at versatility and unexpected combos than a broader ability to pull on more elements? I can't imagine that would make people who want to play Enchanter wizards very happy. It also wouldn't make [B]me[/B] very happy. That's part of why in my mind, the bard is the master of "the whole being greater than the sum of the parts." Bards take a little bit of magic, a little bit of combat, and a little bit of flourish, and make the harmonious union of the three a lot stronger than any one element can be on its own. You can be a druid/mage/fighter/rogue and be broad and unfocused, OR, you can be a Bard, and be focused on your versatility. It might help to characterize it in terms of what it might look like in my mind: You've got a [B]druid[/B] who is good at plant an animal magic. At higher levels, it becomes awesome at controlling plants and animals, making trees walk and befriending monstrosities and turning into wooly rhinoceroses. The ultimate nature warrior! You've got a [B]thief[/B] who is good at stealth and skullduggery. They bluff and hide and do a little sneaky biz. At high levels, they become awesome at stealth and skullduggery, being nigh invisible and effortlessly successful. You've got a [B]fighter[/B] who is good with weapons and armor. They hit things hard, and take hard hits. At high levels, they become nearly invincible, with a sword arm that decapitates giants. You've got a [B]wizard[/B] who is tapped into the mysterious otherworld. At low levels, they're twinkling lights and magical force, at high levels, they're turning enemies into toads and transcending dimensions. You've got the [B]bard[/B]. They do nature magic, they are tapped into the otherworld, they are skilled at skullduggery, and they're handy with a blade. But what makes the bard special is their ability to blend these. They're not just good with a blade. Their sword-slices are enchanted with eldritch magic. They duel with the land itself aiding them. They fight with a skillful flourish that makes them unpredictable. They blend their disparate skills into being an awesome warrior. They're not just handy with some tweety birds. Their bond with nature is deep and mystical. They transform creatures with their enchantments, they fight with the speed of a hummingbird, climb with the agility of a squirrel, they know the pulse and needs of the natural world. They're not just dabblers in the arcane. They know the arcane energy that lies within every body movement and sound, and that magic makes their blades sparkle, makes their eyes twinkle, and makes life bend to their will. They're not just skillful charmers and dilletantes in lore. They use words to hypnotize, to speak with the wild creatures of the world. They know the legend they are forging with their blade is stronger than the armor of their enemies, and that gives them power. The best D&D bards are things like the Harpers, or Elan, and these things are not about magic. They're about using magic as one skill among many. I imagine the kind of bard I want is probably going to be somehow possible in 5e, but I'd like to know why they thought full spellcasting was The Thing That Was Good. It's not clear to me from here how that helps. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Legends & Lore 03.10.2014: Full-spellcasting Bard
Top