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Legends & Lore: A Bit More on Feats
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<blockquote data-quote="DMZ2112" data-source="post: 6162313" data-attributes="member: 78752"><p>I think we're comparing apples and oranges, here. You're right in that AD&D1 was famous for modifying your Dexterity check for being an elf, being a thief, being in the woods, wearing leather, standing next to a halfling, and it being nighttime. But no matter what your race, class, or circumstances were, everyone only got the one Dex check. Or, in combat, the one attack roll.</p><p></p><p>I don't consider that to be six different systems. It's one system with a lot of modifiers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In simplest terms, I think what I'm concerned about is skill challenges, more than anything else. A lot of proponents of skill challenges don't seem to have the problems with players I have. I have often played with players who will call me out on social scenes that end poorly for their characters because I didn't give them the dubious benefit of a skill challenge as they are outlined in the rules.</p><p></p><p>And I understand that. I do. If it were a combat scene and I kept telling this player that the orc was hitting his character repeatedly and doing max damage, all without rolling any dice, he'd be rightfully torqued up. But when it comes to roleplaying challenges sometimes I expect my players to think with their heads and not their polyhedral polymer.</p><p></p><p>Or if I do want them to roll dice, I have a predetermined sense of how the rolling should go, and that sense evolves as the scene changes due to their input. The skill challenge system just doesn't fit all circumstances, but it is presented in the material like combat adjudication.</p><p></p><p>That's what I want to avoid in D&D5. If feats are going to modify pillars of the game other than combat, that is a sticky business, because the more rules you have in those theaters, the more they are going to lock dungeon masters into a single method of adjudication. It works in combat. It's crap for just about everything else.</p><p></p><p>To clarify, yes, social feats ought to work on a maneuver system, if you've got to have social feats at all. But I feel like this is unfriendly territory. "Oh, the king is stubborn? I use my Redirect Stubbornness feat. 16 on the Charisma check, and now he's stubbornly on our side. Next?"</p><p></p><p>But you know what? Maybe D&D /ought/ to have a social combat system. Maybe the answer to D&D being a combat-heavy RPG has been staring us in the face all along. If you can't beat them...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DMZ2112, post: 6162313, member: 78752"] I think we're comparing apples and oranges, here. You're right in that AD&D1 was famous for modifying your Dexterity check for being an elf, being a thief, being in the woods, wearing leather, standing next to a halfling, and it being nighttime. But no matter what your race, class, or circumstances were, everyone only got the one Dex check. Or, in combat, the one attack roll. I don't consider that to be six different systems. It's one system with a lot of modifiers. In simplest terms, I think what I'm concerned about is skill challenges, more than anything else. A lot of proponents of skill challenges don't seem to have the problems with players I have. I have often played with players who will call me out on social scenes that end poorly for their characters because I didn't give them the dubious benefit of a skill challenge as they are outlined in the rules. And I understand that. I do. If it were a combat scene and I kept telling this player that the orc was hitting his character repeatedly and doing max damage, all without rolling any dice, he'd be rightfully torqued up. But when it comes to roleplaying challenges sometimes I expect my players to think with their heads and not their polyhedral polymer. Or if I do want them to roll dice, I have a predetermined sense of how the rolling should go, and that sense evolves as the scene changes due to their input. The skill challenge system just doesn't fit all circumstances, but it is presented in the material like combat adjudication. That's what I want to avoid in D&D5. If feats are going to modify pillars of the game other than combat, that is a sticky business, because the more rules you have in those theaters, the more they are going to lock dungeon masters into a single method of adjudication. It works in combat. It's crap for just about everything else. To clarify, yes, social feats ought to work on a maneuver system, if you've got to have social feats at all. But I feel like this is unfriendly territory. "Oh, the king is stubborn? I use my Redirect Stubbornness feat. 16 on the Charisma check, and now he's stubbornly on our side. Next?" But you know what? Maybe D&D /ought/ to have a social combat system. Maybe the answer to D&D being a combat-heavy RPG has been staring us in the face all along. If you can't beat them... [/QUOTE]
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