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General Tabletop Discussion
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Legends & Lore - A Retrospective
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6522410" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think this is one lightning rod for the "boardgame vs fictional positioning" debate about 4e.</p><p></p><p>If cover in 4e really is just drawing lines on a grid (as per the 3E-era D&D miniatures rules) then fictional positioning (whether adjudicated by the GM or negotiated between GM and player) is irrelevant - it is just drawing lines on a gameboard.</p><p></p><p>The PHB (p 280) is inconsistent. It contains both "fictional positioning" language and "boardgame language:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Enemies behind a low wall, around a corner, or behind a tree enjoy some amount of cover; you can’t hit them as easily as you normally could.</p><p></p><p>This (and more) fictional-positioning-oriented language, which is not very different from p 74 of the 5e Basic PDF, is followed by rules, under the heading "Determining Cover", about drawing lines from corners. These rules can't even be applied to an enemy behind a low wall, because the cover from a low wall operates in three dimensions and the rules presuppose a flat playing grid! The Rules Compendium basically reproduces this confusion (p 219).</p><p></p><p>The DMG (p 43) is clearer that there are two systems in play - a minis boardgame system and a fictional positioning system (which it describes as "common sense"). It says:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">As the referee, you decide based on common sense whether a creature has cover against an attack. If you</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">want rules that can let you determine cover more precisely, you can use these. They’re the same rules that appear in the D&D Miniatures game. In D&D, though, we recommend that you make a quick decision about cover and move on to the fun.</p><p></p><p>The boardgame rules are not identical to those in the PHB or RC (being the same for ranged attacks but different for melee). They still can't account for low walls.</p><p></p><p>It's interesting that the 4e DMG presented the 5e system as the default, yet by the time Mearls writes his column that seems to have dropped off the radar - for Mearls, for 4e critics, and presumably for many 4e players.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6522410, member: 42582"] I think this is one lightning rod for the "boardgame vs fictional positioning" debate about 4e. If cover in 4e really is just drawing lines on a grid (as per the 3E-era D&D miniatures rules) then fictional positioning (whether adjudicated by the GM or negotiated between GM and player) is irrelevant - it is just drawing lines on a gameboard. The PHB (p 280) is inconsistent. It contains both "fictional positioning" language and "boardgame language: [indent]Enemies behind a low wall, around a corner, or behind a tree enjoy some amount of cover; you can’t hit them as easily as you normally could.[/indent] This (and more) fictional-positioning-oriented language, which is not very different from p 74 of the 5e Basic PDF, is followed by rules, under the heading "Determining Cover", about drawing lines from corners. These rules can't even be applied to an enemy behind a low wall, because the cover from a low wall operates in three dimensions and the rules presuppose a flat playing grid! The Rules Compendium basically reproduces this confusion (p 219). The DMG (p 43) is clearer that there are two systems in play - a minis boardgame system and a fictional positioning system (which it describes as "common sense"). It says: [indent]As the referee, you decide based on common sense whether a creature has cover against an attack. If you want rules that can let you determine cover more precisely, you can use these. They’re the same rules that appear in the D&D Miniatures game. In D&D, though, we recommend that you make a quick decision about cover and move on to the fun.[/indent] The boardgame rules are not identical to those in the PHB or RC (being the same for ranged attacks but different for melee). They still can't account for low walls. It's interesting that the 4e DMG presented the 5e system as the default, yet by the time Mearls writes his column that seems to have dropped off the radar - for Mearls, for 4e critics, and presumably for many 4e players. [/QUOTE]
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