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<blockquote data-quote="Iosue" data-source="post: 6528722" data-attributes="member: 6680772"><p>Well, I think they did gain traction in terms of design. It seems to me that the quick builds of 4e led to the Essentials-style class design, which led to the 5e-style of class design.</p><p></p><p>If your question is, why weren't these seen by the public as drastically reducing starting complexity, my feeling is this. Presentation is definitely a factor. Looking at the 4e PHB, the build descriptions don't strike me as presented as time savers, but rather starting points. I choose my fighter, then what kind of fighter (offense or defense), and then take or reject the suggested feats, skills, and exploits. Even if I just take the suggestions straight, I don't have much of an idea what those feats and exploits actually <em>mean</em> until I read them. What 5e chunks, and how it chunks it, is in practice quite different from 4e. The fighting styles are mechanically light and easily grasped. Backgrounds package their skills, features, and equipment in archetypal images that are easy to have a feel for. It's like, 4e gives me two big, mechanically dense choices to choose from. 5e breaks things up into simple conceptual choices, presented in stages.</p><p></p><p>There's a similar thing at work with 3e's gear lists for each class. On one hand, sure it removes the step of choosing equipment. But it's a big equipment dump that depends on your class. With 5e, half of your equipment is coming from your background, and the other (generally weapon and armor) is coming from your class. The class equipment is typically a set of 3 or 4 choices of A or B. That provides characterization and personalization while at the same time reducing equipment choosing time, folding it into other aspects of character creation. The same is true of skills.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, okay. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Iosue, post: 6528722, member: 6680772"] Well, I think they did gain traction in terms of design. It seems to me that the quick builds of 4e led to the Essentials-style class design, which led to the 5e-style of class design. If your question is, why weren't these seen by the public as drastically reducing starting complexity, my feeling is this. Presentation is definitely a factor. Looking at the 4e PHB, the build descriptions don't strike me as presented as time savers, but rather starting points. I choose my fighter, then what kind of fighter (offense or defense), and then take or reject the suggested feats, skills, and exploits. Even if I just take the suggestions straight, I don't have much of an idea what those feats and exploits actually [i]mean[/i] until I read them. What 5e chunks, and how it chunks it, is in practice quite different from 4e. The fighting styles are mechanically light and easily grasped. Backgrounds package their skills, features, and equipment in archetypal images that are easy to have a feel for. It's like, 4e gives me two big, mechanically dense choices to choose from. 5e breaks things up into simple conceptual choices, presented in stages. There's a similar thing at work with 3e's gear lists for each class. On one hand, sure it removes the step of choosing equipment. But it's a big equipment dump that depends on your class. With 5e, half of your equipment is coming from your background, and the other (generally weapon and armor) is coming from your class. The class equipment is typically a set of 3 or 4 choices of A or B. That provides characterization and personalization while at the same time reducing equipment choosing time, folding it into other aspects of character creation. The same is true of skills. Oh, okay. :D [/QUOTE]
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