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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6535665" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>I think the last article, on complexity, shows where a bit of this "meat" has gone. How many decision points am I going to face in my turn? How many options do I need to juggle at once? How many different factors go into whether or not I deal damage and how much damage I deal? </p><p></p><p>There's totally folks who WANT that level of meat, and who don't think the Battle Master is a good replacement unless it can give more meat there. That's fair, it's just not something that a 5e with a broader appeal is going to necessarily accomplish right out the box.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Rally manuever basically does this, doesn't it? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Certainly some 4e fans are disappointed by it. I think when you've got people who have fun with complexity, but also need to make a simple game, you've got a bit of a choice to make between the two. If the "flesh" of the warlord is in part a product of its complexity and the complexity of the game system it was in, it's hard to emulate that without then making a more complex game. They can give out temp HP and free movement and bonus attacks all day and still not get the right feeling of "meat", simply because it's on a more streamlined system with fewer powers and fiddly bits overall.</p><p></p><p>I mean, I'm with you, I'm playing a dwarf warlord right now in a 4e game and plan on transitioning to a 5e game and am seriously looking at the Battle Master as basically what I'd need, and it looks solid, I'm happy with it. And when I hear from people who aren't, a lot of what they seem to be saying is, "it's not complex enough, I need more options, I need more moving parts."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6535665, member: 2067"] I think the last article, on complexity, shows where a bit of this "meat" has gone. How many decision points am I going to face in my turn? How many options do I need to juggle at once? How many different factors go into whether or not I deal damage and how much damage I deal? There's totally folks who WANT that level of meat, and who don't think the Battle Master is a good replacement unless it can give more meat there. That's fair, it's just not something that a 5e with a broader appeal is going to necessarily accomplish right out the box. The Rally manuever basically does this, doesn't it? Certainly some 4e fans are disappointed by it. I think when you've got people who have fun with complexity, but also need to make a simple game, you've got a bit of a choice to make between the two. If the "flesh" of the warlord is in part a product of its complexity and the complexity of the game system it was in, it's hard to emulate that without then making a more complex game. They can give out temp HP and free movement and bonus attacks all day and still not get the right feeling of "meat", simply because it's on a more streamlined system with fewer powers and fiddly bits overall. I mean, I'm with you, I'm playing a dwarf warlord right now in a 4e game and plan on transitioning to a 5e game and am seriously looking at the Battle Master as basically what I'd need, and it looks solid, I'm happy with it. And when I hear from people who aren't, a lot of what they seem to be saying is, "it's not complex enough, I need more options, I need more moving parts." [/QUOTE]
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