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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5689152" data-attributes="member: 957">I'd greatly dispute that as being demonstrable.The root of 1d20+mods vs DC doesn't go far at all in undoing the rather dramatic mechanical overhaul of the bulk of system in establishing what those mods and DCs are.Every class has the exact same +1/2 BABNo skill points / Every class / every skill +1/2 levelhealing surgesminionsmonsters and PCs are mechanically different than PCs  (this alone is HUGE)1-1-1 diagonalspowers system that is the mechanics backboneDCs based on character level, not intrinsic to the item or situationI'm sure I could go on and on, but frankly, that already creates a night and day difference that simply rolling a D20 doesn't put a dent into.  And it has simply been too long since I played 4E to recall more shooting from the hip here.I do REALLY agree that the 3E is very different than prior edition claim is valid.  I think the whole "our game is more true to the legacy" argument is stupid from both sides.  Relative to 3E and 4E, prior editions are reasonably consistent.  And, frankly and imo, before 3E came along D&D had really stagnated.  Much better systems were out there.  3E was a massive success on large part because it saw that and learned from other games and flat out stole a lot of great ideas that other designers came up with first.  Yes, you can point to this or that in either 3E or 4E that harkens back.  And you can point to radical departures for each.But suggesting that 3E and 4E are primarily the same except for flavor is just a bizarre claim.</blockquote>

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