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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chrisling" data-source="post: 397414" data-attributes="member: 6816">I've been sorta waiting for someone to try this point.Elves live in forests.  As I live in Maine, I have a fair bit of experience with forests.  The utility of a long bow in a forest isn't very great, not against a sentient target (even a not-too-bright one).  Lots of cover, lots of chances to advance in cover.Of course, while forests provide cover for the archers, too, there's a decent way to get rid of that pesky cover: fire.  Hiding in a forest, hoping the enemy comes in so you can shoot them with your bow, is basically digging your own grave.  It's the reason so few battles happen in forests -- the forest is your enemy.For good or ill, when talking armies, we're talking fields.  And in the field, orcs kick elvish booty -- especially because orcs outnumber elves about a billion to one.  ;pAnd the advantages that orcs have are . . . pretty overwhelming.  The average elf has 3 hp, the average orc 4.  The average elf does 1d8 damage -- so when hitting an orc, the elf has about a 50% chance of putting the orc down.  When an orc hits an elf, the lowest damage the orc does puts the elf down.  This differential is mathematically awesome.  And in melee combat, orcs hit more often, too -- given the nature of battles, there's no real way that hand-to-hand combat can be avoided . . . unless you do fortifications, which elves seem loathe to do.All other things being equal, bet on the orcs.  However, all other things aren't equal . . . .Which is generally the case.  It's a few elves against hordes of orcs.  The advantage is all orc.  Maybe elves should have had those sheltered childhoods.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Additionally, it gets worse in the long run.  Consider a decade of war.  1/4th of the elvish population has been destroyed and 1/2 the orcish population has been destroyed.  In fifty years, the first generation of elves will only be halfway to maturity while there will have been three generations of orcs to reproduce their numbers.Having a long cycle isn't an advantage in a lot of ways.LOL.  Elder Things.  My bad.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />However, sure, the intelligent creature might realize how its being manipulated.  Even if they turn to goo at the sight of an elf, there could be a tremendous amount of resentment and mixed feelings going on, there.  It's entirely possible the whole species would turn out schizophrenic; smart enough to see the chains that bind them, but unable to break them due to what would often be percieved as their own personal weakness -- or an unethical manipulation to keep them as slaves.Plus, consider: one of the creatures in question is a dryad.  Okay.  Even if everything goes "as planned" and the dryad falls in love with the elves . . . how does this make them good workers?  I mean, someone gooey in love with a person isn't necessarily an inducement to working hard.  Plus, what about . . . jealousy.  Would the dryad be envious of elven women for having the relationship that is denied to her?  What about other emotions?  Let's also not forget that the dryad can try to charm the elves, too -- who would be in charge, there?Or you're postulating a level of power that's way, way up there.  Heck, you are, anyway.  ;pI mean, could it work?  Sure, possibly.  But there are so many ways it could also fall apart.As a second point, too, we're talking a project that is likely to be multigeneration even for elves.  We're seem to be presuming that during all of this where wouldn't be any radical changes that might force these elvish eugenics masters to either cut short or abandon their project.  The very scale of time it takes to accomplish this task works against the elves.Plus, even presuming success (which I don't think is a given in the first place), what happens when, for instance, a bunch of dryads and pixies are "behind enemy lines," cut off from the elves.  Not necessarily at the mercy of anyone else, but just . . . cut off from the elves.  This is a very realistic scenario.  Being clever beings, they would certainly adapt -- and would have much time to reflect on the nature of their bondage to the elves, and their kin's bondage.  A dryad Martin Luther King and a pixie Nelson Mandela, anyone?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />In my opinion?  No.  In my games, and I've been quite clear about this, aristocracy as practiced in Europe is inherently non-good.  Even aristocrats who free their serfs or something equally unlikely can't be good unless they repudiate serfdom as a morally legitimate system.  I'm pretty sure that other people will disagree, but that's my thinking on the subject.And kings can be elected.  A large number of pre-Middle Ages monarchs were elected into office through a variety of mechanisms.  So it's possible to have an elected king, tho' in most games they are not.  So, IMC, hereditary kings are of a good alignment only if they reject hereditary nobility as having legitimacy.  Again, other people will certainly disagree.So, for purposes of argument I'm willing to pretend I think serfs and kings can be of a good alignment.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Since you tagged me about the Lovecraft thing, I have to mention that humans are apes, not monkeys.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Which is precisely my point, tho'.  Being an intelligent critter doesn't imply you want to belong to a hierachy.Any hierarchy.  Including an elvish one when some snotty elves come around and start to claim to be "forest lords."And, yeah, we're waaaaaay outside the bounds of strict scientific realism, here.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />It is?  I haven't been sold on how taking orders from a group of people shorter lived, not as far-sighted, arrogant and who will bring their frivolous wars to your beautiful forest and saying they're your lords is an advantage.I mean, I consider myself a good guy.  As in good alignment.  I would have serious reservations about the elves you describe being my lords.  They're really creepy guys.  They're involved in this magical manipulation of other species to keep them in a state of sexual slavery because they're too damn lazy to grow their own wheat!  Whoa.  Not to mention they do bring with them a passel of enemies.  It's a lot of interpretation to say that elf stewardship of a forest would be a good thing.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Which could as easily be "keep the treants away" as "work with them for the good of the forest."  As you, yourself, have pointed out, elves seem to like bossing everyone around.  Some people don't like that and might not want to deal with it.  I know I wouldn't, no matter how benevolent they might otherwise be.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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