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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 7187632" data-attributes="member: 15700">I don't think the argument Tony is making is valid at all.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because it's based on the assumption that with those two extra feats, they must be dedicated to combat related abilities or they take away from the fighter's core ability in combat, and those two extra feats &quot;barely shore up lack of skill.&quot;Firstly, the core combat ability of the fighter is outside of those two extra feats.&nbsp; That's why they are two extra feats.&nbsp; If Tony or anyone else feels like they have to use them for combat, then that's their choice.&nbsp; And their choice is not true of everyone else.Secondly, some of those feats can grant abilities that grant exceptional out of combat ability, such as magic initiate, ritual caster, dungeon delver, etc.&nbsp; I strongly disagree with his assumption that an extra feat (let alone two) &quot;barely shore up (out of combat) skill.&quot;&nbsp; That's just a silly statement to make.But really, here is the thing that always gets me about these types of discussions.&nbsp; It seems that people are arguing that the only way they would be happy is if instead of two extra ASIs, there was something like this:&quot;At level 6, you gain advantage on all Wisdom and Intelligence checks to detect secret doors.&nbsp; You also have advantage on saving throws vs traps, and gain resistance to damage from traps.&nbsp; Finally, you can search for traps while moving at a regular pace.At 11th level, increase your intelligence by 1.&nbsp;&nbsp; You always know which way is north, the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset, and can recall anything you've heard or seen in the last month.&quot;Because their argument is that the fighter doesn't have hard coded out of combat abilities.&nbsp; Well, by forcing them to take something like those two feats, how is that any better than to not have specific hard coded out of combat abilities, but the option to give the player the choice?&nbsp; You're getting to extra things no one else gets, which you can absolutely use to improve out of combat capability rather than be forced which abilities to take like every other class does.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 7187632, member: 15700"] I don't think the argument Tony is making is valid at all. Why? Because it's based on the assumption that with those two extra feats, they [I]must [/I]be dedicated to combat related abilities or they take away from the fighter's [I]core [/I]ability in combat, and those two extra feats "barely shore up lack of skill." Firstly, the core combat ability of the fighter is outside of those two extra feats. That's why they are two [I]extra [/I]feats. If Tony or anyone else feels like they have to use them for combat, then that's their choice. And their choice is not true of everyone else. Secondly, some of those feats can grant abilities that grant exceptional out of combat ability, such as magic initiate, ritual caster, dungeon delver, etc. I strongly disagree with his assumption that an extra feat (let alone two) "barely shore up (out of combat) skill." That's just a silly statement to make. But really, here is the thing that always gets me about these types of discussions. It seems that people are arguing that the only way they would be happy is if instead of two extra ASIs, there was something like this: "At level 6, you gain advantage on all Wisdom and Intelligence checks to detect secret doors. You also have advantage on saving throws vs traps, and gain resistance to damage from traps. Finally, you can search for traps while moving at a regular pace. At 11th level, increase your intelligence by 1. You always know which way is north, the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset, and can recall anything you've heard or seen in the last month." Because their argument is that the fighter doesn't have hard coded out of combat abilities. Well, by forcing them to take something like those two feats, how is that any better than to not have specific hard coded out of combat abilities, but the option to give the player the choice? You're getting to extra things no one else gets, which you can absolutely use to improve out of combat capability rather than be forced which abilities to take like every other class does. [/QUOTE]

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