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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9065095" data-attributes="member: 6684958">I'm not so sure it is "many people".  There have always been some players that did not like character death.  But, by in large, the massive whole of the Old School gamers  accepted Character Death as just part of the game.  Death was part of the game, same way it's part of life.  An Old School gamer was more piratical, more down to Earth and more real.  And it's not that all classic characters were toss away characters: plenty of players made massive investments into self insert characters they held very dear.  Of course, the players that wanted the super duper immortal characters were much more vocal with their whines and cries and complaints.  Worse was the Bully aspect, as some many of this type of player would attack, threaten or do worse things to a DM that did not "bring back" the players "special character".    The larger, live and let live group of gamers accepted character death....but they were mostly silent.  And as time passes, people grow up and get jobs....sometimes working for gaming companies.  And, sadly, many of those people come from that smaller group of anti character death players.  And sure, THEY, take it upon themselves to "change and fix" the game....."to make it better".  That is....to better fit their vision of the game.  And a couple years of all that rolling on and you get 5E.  The Soft Players Dream, where they never have to worry about Character Death and can just have great fun on an adventure and always win.This can be seen in the wider world too.  As a kid and teen, my generation played normal group competition games....that is we kept score and one team own the game, and one team lost the game.  By the time I had a kid playing such games, the OFFICIAL Rec Center Policy was: For all games BOTH teams got the points from ANY play.  Or, in other words, the game was an Automatic Tie...even before they played the game.  And if a parent dared to keep a "real score" and be vocal about it, they could be Banned For Life from the Rec Center.  And, this too, was on top of the Zero Tolerance Policy of absolutely no cheering for any player on the team...even your own kid(s).  Spectators had to sit in total silence, with Rec Watchdogs alert for people making any sounds.And.....it's all a trap.  Really only the same small group wants no character death.  And they make the RPG, so what they say is offical.  But, as usual they get many to follow them and fall into the trap.Ask a typical player "Would you want to play a hard nitty gritty grim realism game with random character death Or a super silly easy dream game where your character is an immortal super self insert of you?"  And, well, a LOT of players will go for that second option.  The same way a LOT of parents think that "all games are Automatic Tie Scores" are a great idea as then their kid will "never loose".And, for most, the illusion can work for a bit.  The player can be in hundreds of games.  Happily having their character hop around from encounter to encounter, under the safe comfort that not only will their character never die, but also that they will automatically  "win" the game(that is "complete the quest/mission").  The player does not even really have to try much, and sure does not need to pay attention: they have already one.  And for some, they could not be happier: they will happily tell you how they did every Adventure Path and killed every foe in the Monster Manual. For most the illusion wears off after a bit.  A game with no sense or chance of loss or defeat is not fun.  With the automatic outcome of a "win for all" or a "tie" or "quest success", it can feel pointless to play.  They thought it would be "so much fun" to play a "super human immortal character", but the fun wore off quick.  But 5E is a game of it's time.....and it's unlikely  "not 5.5E" will go back to the Old School way.......but it's possible The Big Company has signed the D&D Death Warrant, just in time for the 50th anniversary.</blockquote>

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