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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 9065564" data-attributes="member: 15700">Whenever I see these arguments, it almost always comes down to this. Of course the game is as deadly as the DM wants, but that's ignoring the actual rules comparisons. So, IMO, when we have these discussions, we need to be willing to forget how we personally played, and look at the actual rules. I think that's the only way you're going to get even a hint of objectivity. So that said, you and others mention the big points. Save or Die, low HP, etc.  I think sometimes people forget two things: 1. Most games stopped after name level, which was level 9. Rarely did you see PCs in the teens or higher. 2. Even at name level, a magic user might only have 20 hit points. The fighter even with a high CON might only have 60ish.So even if you ignore save or die (which even at name level you had roughly a 50% of failing), the save for half rule was deadly. Dragons' breath weapons did damage = to their hit points. Even with a successful save, a red dragon would wipe out all but the sturdiest 10th level PC instantly. Speaking of saves, 5e lets you attempt saves every turn. Not so in AD&D, and you didn't have concentration either.I suppose you could look at it like this. AD&D was highly dependent on magic to keep lethality at bay. You needed magical items, and a lot of them. In a game like 5e, you don't need magic items at all. The survivability was built into the class features.</blockquote>

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