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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9068707" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Not only is this not an &quot;Old School&quot; D&amp;D thing, it's not even a &quot;Common Game Thing&quot;.&nbsp; This is 100% a DM Thing.&nbsp; And in my view, a Bad DM Thing.&nbsp; It is true that a great many players will argue the rules.....IF the DM lets them.&nbsp; All too many players will be happy to stop playing the game AND force everyone else to stop playing the game while they argue that their dwarf in full plate can swim against a strong current of an underground stream with his shield and &quot;two handed&quot; battle axe held in one hand with NO check what so ever for three hours.But again....that is IF you let the player do that.&nbsp; I made a simple house rule ages ago:&nbsp; players can only bring up things after the game or any other time we are not actively playing the game.&nbsp; Of course, few players feel the need to come over on Sunday and argue that a dwarf in full plate mail is just like a submarine for three hours.&nbsp; There has been a shift.....but it's because of the massive change in life styles.&nbsp; Life was a LOT different in the 70s, 80s and even into the 90s.&nbsp; Though sure if you lived in a deep urban city you just went to the corner store to buy food...and that is not so different in 2023 except that store is a Dollar General. But for everyone else:Kids had to learn a TON of stuff.&nbsp; Just take cooking.&nbsp; Come home from school and you wanted a hot dog?&nbsp; Well...you basically had choices like &quot;boil a pot of water on the stove&quot; or &quot;make a clean wood fire and hold the hot dog over it&quot;.&nbsp; Microwaves were not yet a house hold thing.&nbsp; Needed some soap?&nbsp; You had to make it.&nbsp; Needed some candles, you had to make them too.&nbsp; And on and on.&nbsp; The massive mass marketing of goods was not quite nationwide.&nbsp; Sure you could buy some candy at a store....or you could make candy at home.&nbsp; Like Rice Crispy Squares....people have been making them forever....but they did not start telling the boxes of them on store shelves for a long while.&nbsp; By even age 13 or so, the even average kid knew a lot about &quot;real life&quot;.&nbsp; This gave players in a game a huge amount of &quot;real life&quot; back ground to draw upon.&nbsp; A player HAD trapped rabbits, downed a buck with a bow and arrow, skinned that buck, preserved the meat and cooked some of that meat over an open fire.&nbsp; So they would understand concepts like often &quot;a cooking fire gives off lots of smoke&quot;, for example.But with that huge wildly different life experiences also came a lot of....not so bright people.&nbsp; They would &quot;swear&quot; they did or did not do something....or that something was &quot;so easy&quot; or &quot;so hard&quot;.&nbsp; Though often they would leave out or forget details...or worse not understand what they saw.&nbsp; And THIS is what started tons of endless arguments.&nbsp; A player would say it is &quot;so easy&quot; to just grab some soaking wet wood, make a spark with a rock and have a massive roaring fire made in less then a minute.&nbsp; And while maybe not &quot;impossible&quot; (with like dry wood and gasoline), the story is not too likely.&nbsp; The modern player...born in the last 20 years or so....lives in a much different world.&nbsp; Simple push button technology everywhere.&nbsp; Cheap goods are everywhere....Dollar Generals are everywhere.&nbsp; And Microwaves.&nbsp; And the internet.&nbsp; I grew up in a house with no running city water, no city sewer and no gas line (though we had both a gas and water tank) but had electricity and a phone (land) line.&nbsp;&nbsp; And, some places in 2023 are still a lot like that.&nbsp; But less every year.&nbsp; My &quot;old house&quot; is connected to everything today, right up to blazing fast 5G wifi.So a typical modern player has no back ground to build on....they have never gone fishing, climbed a rocky cliff or made much of anything.&nbsp; But then too, 5E asks nothing from the players.&nbsp; Or the DM, for that matter.&nbsp; Need a character to swim, eh, just roll a easy check......</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9068707, member: 6684958"] Not only is this not an "Old School" D&D thing, it's not even a "Common Game Thing". This is 100% a DM Thing. And in my view, a Bad DM Thing. It is true that a great many players will argue the rules.....IF the DM lets them. All too many players will be happy to stop playing the game AND force everyone else to stop playing the game while they argue that their dwarf in full plate can swim against a strong current of an underground stream with his shield and "two handed" battle axe held in one hand with NO check what so ever for three hours. But again....that is IF you let the player do that. I made a simple house rule ages ago: players can only bring up things after the game or any other time we are not actively playing the game. Of course, few players feel the need to come over on Sunday and argue that a dwarf in full plate mail is just like a submarine for three hours. There has been a shift.....but it's because of the massive change in life styles. Life was a LOT different in the 70s, 80s and even into the 90s. Though sure if you lived in a deep urban city you just went to the corner store to buy food...and that is not so different in 2023 except that store is a Dollar General. But for everyone else: Kids had to learn a TON of stuff. Just take cooking. Come home from school and you wanted a hot dog? Well...you basically had choices like "boil a pot of water on the stove" or "make a clean wood fire and hold the hot dog over it". Microwaves were not yet a house hold thing. Needed some soap? You had to make it. Needed some candles, you had to make them too. And on and on. The massive mass marketing of goods was not quite nationwide. Sure you could buy some candy at a store....or you could make candy at home. Like Rice Crispy Squares....people have been making them forever....but they did not start telling the boxes of them on store shelves for a long while. By even age 13 or so, the even average kid knew a lot about "real life". This gave players in a game a huge amount of "real life" back ground to draw upon. A player HAD trapped rabbits, downed a buck with a bow and arrow, skinned that buck, preserved the meat and cooked some of that meat over an open fire. So they would understand concepts like often "a cooking fire gives off lots of smoke", for example. But with that huge wildly different life experiences also came a lot of....not so bright people. They would "swear" they did or did not do something....or that something was "so easy" or "so hard". Though often they would leave out or forget details...or worse not understand what they saw. And THIS is what started tons of endless arguments. A player would say it is "so easy" to just grab some soaking wet wood, make a spark with a rock and have a massive roaring fire made in less then a minute. And while maybe not "impossible" (with like dry wood and gasoline), the story is not too likely. The modern player...born in the last 20 years or so....lives in a much different world. Simple push button technology everywhere. Cheap goods are everywhere....Dollar Generals are everywhere. And Microwaves. And the internet. I grew up in a house with no running city water, no city sewer and no gas line (though we had both a gas and water tank) but had electricity and a phone (land) line. And, some places in 2023 are still a lot like that. But less every year. My "old house" is connected to everything today, right up to blazing fast 5G wifi. So a typical modern player has no back ground to build on....they have never gone fishing, climbed a rocky cliff or made much of anything. But then too, 5E asks nothing from the players. Or the DM, for that matter. Need a character to swim, eh, just roll a easy check...... [/QUOTE]

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