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Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 9069520" data-attributes="member: 6799660"><p>I didn't think we were allowed to call people out on trolling, but I'd fathom a guess most everyone knows he was either seeing how far he could go or doing deliberately over-the-top* kids-these-days self-indulgence and are simply reacting as if they buy it (because what purpose does it serve to call them out? Then it just becomes 'nuh-uh' vs 'uh-huh'). <span style="color: rgb(209, 213, 216)">*because, seriously, this is all straight out of <em>Little House on the Prairie-</em>style survivalist notions. Soap is one of the earliest mass-produced commercial products in existence and has incredible economy of scale in the creation process. If your time or efforts are worth anything at all, it is more economically efficient to buy the stuff than make it unless it has to be carted by horse and wagon across a continent or the like. </span></p><p></p><p>Trying to salvage some of this, I'll pretend this is in earnest and note that this is one of the reasons why many people have a resistance to the OSR, playing TSR-era D&Ds, or the suggestion of including gameplay loops those systems favored over what has come since. There is value in some of these things like making combat less advisable, making the PCs hungrier for resources, and/or making the game less predictable. However, if I the hypothetical gamer won't explore these facets because they assume the person suggesting it just wants to revel in/impress upon the newer gamers how more hardcore it was gamed 'back in the day (TM)' ('uphill both ways, and we <em>liked </em>it!'), they aren't going to bother. </p><p></p><p>Anyways, moving on...</p><p></p><p>Interesting. I certainly know that both AD&D's rulebooks repeatedly went to the well of the notion that the DM needed to keep the players from trying to get away with something. Similarly, stereotypes and spoofs and comics (such as <em>Knights of the Dinner Table</em> and such) suggested that gaming was rife with players trying to get away with stuff and DMs trying to shut that down with draconian consequences (and, them being comedies, often ending in horrific results). However, I didn't experience that much in my own games. Most of those were among people who were friends (or at least classmates) outside gaming. You didn't want people to coming away with the notion that you were picking on them. Honestly, we wanted all the deaths to seem 'fair,' even if it was fair within an highly dangerous scenario where the PCs often had to guess at what was safe or not. </p><p></p><p>I honestly don't know how often this was the case. Now, rather famously some of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Horrors" target="_blank">earliest </a>published modules were simply Convention modules ported over with little conversion, and often it was not made clear that they were built on a last-man-standing framework. However, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Giants" target="_blank">many </a>of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Demonweb_Pits" target="_blank">other </a>classic modules seem to have been written up specifically for publication as general purpose modules. I don't know if anyone has done a full analysis, but it would be interesting to see.</p><p></p><p>For us, in general, if our party fighters were at low HP, they/we ran away instead of tried to get healed in-real-time. Sure, the to-hit likelihood to chance-of-dropping-if-hit was different, but in general it was still gambling against an enemy attack that did about as much damage as a cleric healed. I think I remember clerics <em>doing </em>more in-combat healing, but IIRC that was simply because often a cleric (at least one who wasn't an AD&D 2e combat-specialist variant, or the like)'s other available actions were less likely to help end the combat sooner (than they are in 5e or the like).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Willie the Duck, post: 9069520, member: 6799660"] I didn't think we were allowed to call people out on trolling, but I'd fathom a guess most everyone knows he was either seeing how far he could go or doing deliberately over-the-top* kids-these-days self-indulgence and are simply reacting as if they buy it (because what purpose does it serve to call them out? Then it just becomes 'nuh-uh' vs 'uh-huh'). [COLOR=rgb(209, 213, 216)]*because, seriously, this is all straight out of [I]Little House on the Prairie-[/I]style survivalist notions. Soap is one of the earliest mass-produced commercial products in existence and has incredible economy of scale in the creation process. If your time or efforts are worth anything at all, it is more economically efficient to buy the stuff than make it unless it has to be carted by horse and wagon across a continent or the like. [/COLOR] Trying to salvage some of this, I'll pretend this is in earnest and note that this is one of the reasons why many people have a resistance to the OSR, playing TSR-era D&Ds, or the suggestion of including gameplay loops those systems favored over what has come since. There is value in some of these things like making combat less advisable, making the PCs hungrier for resources, and/or making the game less predictable. However, if I the hypothetical gamer won't explore these facets because they assume the person suggesting it just wants to revel in/impress upon the newer gamers how more hardcore it was gamed 'back in the day (TM)' ('uphill both ways, and we [I]liked [/I]it!'), they aren't going to bother. Anyways, moving on... Interesting. I certainly know that both AD&D's rulebooks repeatedly went to the well of the notion that the DM needed to keep the players from trying to get away with something. Similarly, stereotypes and spoofs and comics (such as [I]Knights of the Dinner Table[/I] and such) suggested that gaming was rife with players trying to get away with stuff and DMs trying to shut that down with draconian consequences (and, them being comedies, often ending in horrific results). However, I didn't experience that much in my own games. Most of those were among people who were friends (or at least classmates) outside gaming. You didn't want people to coming away with the notion that you were picking on them. Honestly, we wanted all the deaths to seem 'fair,' even if it was fair within an highly dangerous scenario where the PCs often had to guess at what was safe or not. I honestly don't know how often this was the case. Now, rather famously some of the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Horrors']earliest [/URL]published modules were simply Convention modules ported over with little conversion, and often it was not made clear that they were built on a last-man-standing framework. However, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Giants']many [/URL]of the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Demonweb_Pits']other [/URL]classic modules seem to have been written up specifically for publication as general purpose modules. I don't know if anyone has done a full analysis, but it would be interesting to see. For us, in general, if our party fighters were at low HP, they/we ran away instead of tried to get healed in-real-time. Sure, the to-hit likelihood to chance-of-dropping-if-hit was different, but in general it was still gambling against an enemy attack that did about as much damage as a cleric healed. I think I remember clerics [I]doing [/I]more in-combat healing, but IIRC that was simply because often a cleric (at least one who wasn't an AD&D 2e combat-specialist variant, or the like)'s other available actions were less likely to help end the combat sooner (than they are in 5e or the like). [/QUOTE]
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