Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 1680049" data-attributes="member: 151">I'm going to have to disagree with you, here.  I've run dungeon crawls with 15th, 18th, 20th level and beyond.  The first thing you have to reconcile is that such powerful characters have lots of equipment and plenty of options, many of which have no bearing on teleportation.  Slippers of Spider Climb are only 4,900 gp and boots of levitation only 7500 gp.  You can bet your bottom gold piece that a high level rogue may not be wearing them all the time, but she's got them in her haversack.  Heck, the 1st level spell, Jump, can give a +30 bonus by the time the caster reaches 9th level.  Is it an inherently better choice than denying a teleport spell to get an item?  Monks have super movement without any items.  Every adventurer I've ever played with has always carried a few 'ace in the hole' items against emergencies.  The presence of magic is going to make any solution possible, and relatively easy.  The question becomes one of opportunity cost, an issue often forgotten.  Let's run further with your example, for a moment.  Mr. Wizard teleports back to town.  Now, let's assume that there's only one magic shop, say at the guild, so he doesn't have to travel about town.  That doesn't happen in my world, but let's say that it does.  We'll also assume he's heading to a metropolis, with at least 50,000 people, so that there would be at least a potential of 30-40 people who might even have the ability to make the item he wants.  More likely, the number is closer to 10 such individuals.  The chance that such an indivdual is ready and just sitting about, waiting to sell some items is unlikely.  Remember, we're talking about a 13th level caster, minimum, to create the scroll.  Perhaps the PC is going to a broker.  Not unlikely.  Book value on that scroll of Greater Teleport is 2275 gp...but a shrewd businessman will note the PC's urgency, not to mention the demand for that particular item, and the PC may end up spending a good deal more.  Beggars can't be choosers, and if the PC needs that spell NOW, he's paying more for it.  We're also being awfully nice in our example, by assuming that he can get a powerful divine item and powerful arcane item at the same shop.  Either way, this is going to cost time, as well as money.  There's no instaneous "McDonald's Adventurer Meal".  Such items aren't just sitting under a glass case, waiting to be bought.  They're locked and secured in vaults.    But let's assume he can and does get the items he needs.  He's just used a 5th level slot, and then bought and burned a 2275 item, for the privelege of buying a 525 gp wand (and quite frankly, I'd be suprised if the party didn't already have superior equipment and spells than that) and a bunch of 325 gp scrolls for flight.  NOTE: High-level PCs either have lots of cash, or lots of powerful items...sometimes both.  Remember that the PCs are in an arms race, of sorts, with the BBEG and his forces.  Fighting powerful outsiders?  You'd better be prepared.  So, Mr. Wizard has burned a 5th level slot, consumed a bunch of magic items and defeated....a pit trap, essentially.  I'm not seeing the problem, really.  Theoretically, they still have five hours to rescue a hostage, but they've used some of their abilities and resources to beat a challenge.  Which is how the system is meant to work, by design.  Now, you may not prefer that playstyle, but understand that to change it as radically as I sometimes see suggested, you need to make much more sweeping changes than simply remove the instant and even fast-transit spells.    The example you gave is easily defeated by a quick combination of 1st to 3rd level spells.  Hardly something a high-level party worries about.   You might rightly say "But they didn't memorize those spells that day", and you'd be right...but they probably did memorize "Limited Wish, Wish, or Summon Monster, Planar Ally, Miracle and Gate"...most of which allow them the flexibily to not bother.  To return to the example above: the party is completely tapped of spells, except for one teleport spell?  I suppose that possible, but unlikely.  Most parties will jealously guard the non-renewable resources like spells until as such time as they either need them more than ever, or that there's no other choice but to use them.  If the party's 'casters are on empty, then their final showdown and rescue is going to be pretty unsatisfying for the party members so afflicted...unless of course, they have items to use during the battle, again returning us to opportunity cost.  I think part of the question becomes who are the players battling at higher levels?  The core assumption appears to be "powerful wizards", be they liches, corrupt humans or something more nefarious.  Powerful extraplanar forces are often missed.  When your enemies can swoop down on you from off-plane and can both teleport and plane-shift at will, you tend to be more cautious.  My experience has been that players who know that they're always in peril tend to save the last spell for an escape.  The wizard who doesn't jealously guard his emergency spells doesn't get too far...incautious wizards don't live long lives.  Things like contingency make things even more complex.  IMC, the casters always keep transit spells prepped, because they know a call for help from across the world may come at any moment.  A 23rd-level cleric is the living will of his god embodied in physical form: his church can and will call upon him to act on their behalf.  A 23rd level paladin is ready to act without hesitation at his deity's insistence, or even just the need of the people.    High-level D&D is about tough choices: do I use that Teleport now?  Will I need it later?  Is this worth spending my sacrifice on, or using my last Fly spell?  Will I need this scroll, potion, or wand later?  Do I have enough hit points, or should I heal?  Should I activate a death ward now, or wait ten minutes?  Should I use my +5 sword, or get out the anarchic +3 keen one, instead?  In a game with insta-death saves, a single round can be the difference between life and death.  Opportunity cost matters.  Now, if as a player or DM, you feel that such spells are taking fun out of the game, you should remove them.  But if the intention is to force the players to engage in an activity purely for the sake of forcing it on them, it's not much fun for all around.  Tolkien, for example, is a poor example for lots of things, because D&D makes tons of assumptions about it's core world that simply are demonstratively false in Tolkien's world.  D&D is an amalgamation of lots of different worlds, mixed and melted together into its own design...a design of which teleport is an assumed part.</blockquote>

Verification