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Message: <blockquote data-quote="(Psi)SeveredHead" data-source="post: 5962844" data-attributes="member: 1165">Unfortunately, many of those fighters weren't part of adventuring parties. Even in D&D fiction, the PCs rarely function as adventurers. There's usually one or two main characters, and the rest (especially magic-users and healers) are just "hangers-on". (The opposite occurs when the main character is a caster. That's why Elminster is such as munchkin in print; he can't be squishy or ever prepare the wrong spells, as his only backup is ... Mystra.)This gets worse with even older fiction. How many of those Ancient Greek heroes were A) not fighters and B) not demigods?And I will pronounce a deep sigh for attempting to make classes that replicate specific characters, fighters or not. That ruined a bunch of classes like the ranger.The old games didn't necessarily promote teamwork. I don't mean in terms of how you played (thieves scouted, for instance), but the rules didn't promote teamwork. 3.x was the first edition I saw with rules for things like flanking. I don't believe aid another existed before that either. You ended up with a situation where the rogue could "backstab" far more often than before... but he needed help doing so.As a result, the whole party had to be able to take part in combat, which is generally the most time-consuming part of the game.Many classes, including the fighter, were given too many roles early on. It was worse with spellcasters, but it generally affected every class except the rogue.Fighters were supposed to do the most damage, have the most hit points, have the best AC and in short do everything that didn't involve magic.Wizards have such a wide variety of spells - anything from nearly unstoppable defenses to DM-dependent illusions, massive damage spells and a variety of insta-debuff/kill spells...Clerics were only in the game to heal and "off-tank". Naturally they were given spells that didn't fulfill any of those roles. 3.x only made things worse by giving them the ability to buff-n-bash. (I like how most 4e cleric powers have a built in one-turn buff. Really puts the "lead" in leader. Even if you hate healing, clerics can still be fun to play.)Thieves had the most limited role pre 3.x. You could use a few skills (which helped the whole party but not that much in combat) -- unclear stealth rules made things worse, find and disarm traps and, if you were lucky, once combat started you could backstab once. Unsurprisingly WotC gave rogues a new combat role in 3.x, so they could be useful once the fighting started. (Unfortunately, due to clumsiness in Stealth rules, it's not really possible to make a rogue who hides well in combat without magic or a prestige class in 3.x.) Of course, this resulted in a rogue who could out-damage a fighter, seeming to stray into fighter territory.Finally 4e made roles concrete. As a direct result, some classes that hadn't been covered well previously (bard, cleric, monk) made sense.Alas, the fighter had too many roles before and had to lose something. In Essentials the fighter was split into two classes, "slayer" and "knight".The slayer is a big bad dude who is fairly tough and does loads of damage. He's simpler to use than the rogue. Thematically he's quite different, but having a rogue and slayer in the party usually isn't necessary.The knight is a real tough guy who protects other PCs. In addition to his "marking aura" (his Defender Aura) he can punish anyone foolish enough to attack someone under his protection. He has abilities like Threatening Glower to draw attention and Staggering Hammer to contain opponents.I don't think it's really a good idea to have an old fighter who can do both things anymore. To be blunt, until 4e the fighter never could do the second role except through "gentleman's arrangement". This crops up time and time again in the D&DN playtest; the fighter and guardian cleric have very limited abilities to protect other PCs, but people only complain about it now since we've gone through twelve years of gaming where fighters could do something other than dish out damage. Opponents can just walk around them (no opportunity attacks) and gank a softer target. If you're looking for an old-style fighter, the slayer is probably your best bet, in 4e at least.</blockquote>

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