Lets "fix" the Keep pregens!

[phil500]

So now that we know a lot more options, what would you do to optimize the pregens?

 

[Mengu]

I would love to see an Elf Cleric of Corellon to replace the half-elf cleric, done in the same style as other KotSF characters, with the level up powers for 2nd and 3rd level.

 

[phil500]

I think the cler needs to pick either str or wis and max it, then pick powers accordingly.

thats not a good way to go for a campaign though, would narrow too many options. looks like clers need a decent score in both.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

So now that we know a lot more options, what would you do to optimize the pregens?

I know I'd really appreciate someone going through the Pregens for KotS (and the D&DXP ones too, if they've got time) and tidying them up & removing any mistakes - even if they were only for first level.

 

[Bolongo]

I think the cler needs to pick either str or wis and max it, then pick powers accordingly.

Correct, grasshopper.

thats not a good way to go for a campaign though, would narrow too many options. looks like clers need a decent score in both.

Wha? Did you suddenly forget everything you just learned? Back to the monastery for you. A few years more of scrubbing floors, I think.

Seriously, the mathematically optimal build for any class is always to focus on powers that use your main stat and push that to 20 at start.

The pre-gens aren't built that way (except Skamos, but then again he's a Tiefling) because... well, because it would be advertising that the system is broken. Or maybe not broken, but at least open to some mild abuse.

OTOH, it also seems as if they've balanced encounter construction around players having sub-optimal builds, so if your players are minimaxers you (the DM) might have to up the difficulty a little to keep it challenging.

Personally, I intend to be upfront with my players about how I think the system works, and then they can make their own choices. I don't mind retuning some encounters along the way, it's way better than listening to complaints several months down the road when they realize they've gimped themselves and can't do anything about it.

 

[phil500]

Seriously, the mathematically optimal build for any class is always to focus on powers that use your main stat and push that to 20 at start.

I would agree that thats going to be the "best" build for levels 1-3.
but for the long haul, i would rather have a char with more options.
the cler powers are fairly evenly divided among STR and WIS base. that, along with the fact you get to level 2 stats on 4,8 etc. really points to not dumping one or the other.

You can still kinda min/max, get an 18 in wis and a 16 in str.

to do that: go dorf and take 16(+2) wis,16 str,11(+2) con,10,10,8. That is, dumping cha to 10. and int/dex to 10/8.

With that build you can use some feats to shore up AC and saves. the 13 con is more for prereqs than anything else, eventually it would get to 15 and you can use FP and whatnot.

i think some people have worked out that you get an odd # of bonuses up to level 30, so that build is actually not optimized.

 

[Voss]

Buying an 18 through point buy isn't necessarily your best option. Its good for some characters, but you'll often want 14s in your secondary and/or tertiary stats, and possibly con. Both for secondary power effects and for other defenses.

Buying an 18 essentially means you're buying 18/13/13/10/10/8 or 18/14/11/10/10/8. This can probably work from what people have said (warlocks and wizards, I'm looking at you). But its going to make clerics and paladins cry.
Most classes are probably better off with 17/14/13/12/10/8 or 17/14/14/10/10/8. Its effective for your primary stat (you're only off the max for about half your levels), can give you functional secondary stats and defenses, and doesn't leave you with glaring weaknesses.

The array is horrible though. Buying up the 8 and raising a 10 to 11 is completely worthless. That could turn the 12 into a 14, and no one needs to care about a 5th or 6th stat, unless you absolutely can't stand to have a trivial penalty on skills you don't care about.
I'd suggest a default array of 16/14/14/13/10/8

 

[Bolongo]

the cler powers are fairly evenly divided among STR and WIS base. that, along with the fact you get to level 2 stats on 4,8 etc. really points to not dumping one or the other.

I've read this argument before and I still don't understand it. Yes, many classes have powers evenly divided between 2 stats. But why on earth would you want to take powers from both branches? You can play, say, a Battle Cleric straight down the line, taking only the Str based powers (and maybe a few that don't have an attack roll at all). This loses nothing in effectiveness. In fact, it's the most effective way to go.

Secondary stats do things like provide situational bonuses, or tell you how many times/day you can do something. This is nice, but not very significant compared to a straight-up bonus to every single attack roll you will ever make. Sure, go ahead and make your secondary stat 14 (16 if you really optimize your race bonuses), but it hardly needs to be more than that. The main reason to have any points in stats aside from your primary is actually to improve your defenses. The next best reason is to meet feat prerequisites.

Again, with the caveat that all this is strictly from a minimaxing perspective. I fully understand that not all players suffer from a Jiminy Cricket with a Math degree on their shoulder.
A +1 only matters once every 20 rolls, statistically speaking, so if you only go by intuition you might never "feel" the difference. If so, you could conceivably live a full and happy life with no more than, I dunno, a 16 or so in your main stat. But I sure wouldn't want to try it...

 

[keterys]

There are some classes/builds where the secondary stat is more important than others - you might really care how much of a bonus to attack/damage you give the rest of the party, how many squares you push/slide, etc... at least as often as 1 in 20 attack rolls.

Similarly, having a +1 to one defense and +2 to another in exchange for -1 to attack and damage may be noticeable at least as often as 1 in 20 attack rolls.

That said... it's hard to go _wrong_ with maxing out your attack

 

[Domon]

then when you want to push that pesky enemy 3 squares and you can only push him 2 squares, you are going to think that missing 1 attack out of 20 is a good exchange for that...