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Let's Not Save The World...Again
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7718474" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>I have similar thoughts, but it's not really "save the world" that I find is as the main issue - it's the focus on gaining levels and abilities along with designing "cool stuff". It's not the scale of the story that matters, it's the focus.</p><p></p><p>In most movies, books, TV series, etc., the focus is on the characters and their stories. Sometimes the setting plays a large part, and the story is how the characters react to the setting. But in most cases (there are some exceptions) there isn't a lot of advancement in the skills of the characters. Indiana Jones is Indy, Bond is Bond, Superman's abilities are well known and largely haven't changed in decades. Luke Skywalker did advance, but the rest of the characters around him for the most part didn't.</p><p></p><p>In addition, the setting is usually fairly consistent, and more importantly, used to set the stage. The most successful of the Indy movies are set against a backdrop of WWII, with the Nazis as the villain. Superhero villains return again and again. The same applies to the many villains in Bond movies. In a lot of TV series (mostly non-fantasy ones, but also science fiction like Star Trek), there is no overarching villain. Each story is self-contained, although sometimes there's a bigger story looming in the background that becomes the focus from time-to-time. Police or legal dramas have an endless parade of crimes to solve, criminals to put behind bars.</p><p></p><p>Major villains are frequently thwarted, but not killed outright. They return again and again. </p><p></p><p>The advantage of an approach where characters remain at a certain level for a long time is that you have time to get to know the characters. For the characters to grow. To see how they'll handle a certain situation, survive this challenge, etc. Knowing that they <em>aren't</em> the most powerful beings in the universe. That survival or success isn't assured.</p><p></p><p>While I love the D&D 5e ruleset, it's heavily weighted toward success. Level advancement is very fast, and new abilities every couple of levels. Next week's monsters are "bigger and better" and encounters are designed around mathematical equations driving toward combat, but make sure it's not too hard. The APs are designed to bring characters from 1st level to 15th level (with some variations), with a big story to go with it. Once you reach the end, there isn't really many places to go with those characters from there. The design seems to imply it's time to make new characters and pick up the next AP, instead of maintaining the same characters across multiple APs.</p><p></p><p>That's an inherent problem with the "level-up as a goal" design - eventually you level out of the system. It's always been a challenge for DMs, and 4e tried to address it, but the 4e approach had its own issues. Mostly because as long as level advancement and gaining new abilities is the goal of the game, you can only go so far.</p><p></p><p>It reminds my of a common problem TV shows have at the end of a season. Instead of continuing with their development of the characters and their stories, there's some big event that shakes up the world of the show. Half the cast might be dead next season! Except that the first episode of the new season neatly resolves the issues, and everything goes back to normal (often completely ignoring the ramifications of those couple of episodes). Of course, the end of the next season has to be even bigger.</p><p></p><p>While I understand that Spielberg and Lucas wanted to get away from the Nazis in the Indiana Jones franchise, they are the perfect type of villain, like the Russians in Bond or other spy series of the era. You can't destroy the ultimate villains and their network, just thwart their current plans. War settings in general work well as a backdrop, as there are always stories to tell, missions, or challenges that somebody must handle, but you know they aren't going to defeat the opposing army single-handedly. The mob is a good model for an a villainous organization (or organizations, as they have rivals of their own). </p><p></p><p>But recent RPG design recommends against recurring villains. Expect that the encounter with your villain will result in the death of the villain. Don't take away your player's victory by allowing the villain to get away. The design model is to drive toward the encounter with the BBEG, and success is defined as the destruction of the BBEG. </p><p></p><p>As I was going through the AD&D PHB recently, a picture near the end struck me as a perfect example of how the focus of RPGs has shifted. It's a picture of a small group of adventurers leaving the dungeon. The rogue (thief) has a bag of loot, and is looking back, as if there's more to be found, and there's a silhouette of a dwarf, and a fighter, holding a bag of loot, and raising his axe to the sky. And to me the picture is all about survival. Not the big battle with the BBEG, but we simply got some treasure, had some adventure, and survived. They are excited simply to be able to leave the dungeon, to adventure another day.</p><p></p><p>There doesn't have to be any more story than that. Like a cop show, each episode is about a new crime to solve, a new criminal to identify and stop. A party of adventurers just has one more dungeon to explore. Come back to town, blow it on the high life, and go back and get some more. There doesn't even have to be a big story to go with it.</p><p></p><p>Don't get me wrong, I'm not against their being a story. But it doesn't always have to be "bigger and better" than the last one.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7718474, member: 6778044"] I have similar thoughts, but it's not really "save the world" that I find is as the main issue - it's the focus on gaining levels and abilities along with designing "cool stuff". It's not the scale of the story that matters, it's the focus. In most movies, books, TV series, etc., the focus is on the characters and their stories. Sometimes the setting plays a large part, and the story is how the characters react to the setting. But in most cases (there are some exceptions) there isn't a lot of advancement in the skills of the characters. Indiana Jones is Indy, Bond is Bond, Superman's abilities are well known and largely haven't changed in decades. Luke Skywalker did advance, but the rest of the characters around him for the most part didn't. In addition, the setting is usually fairly consistent, and more importantly, used to set the stage. The most successful of the Indy movies are set against a backdrop of WWII, with the Nazis as the villain. Superhero villains return again and again. The same applies to the many villains in Bond movies. In a lot of TV series (mostly non-fantasy ones, but also science fiction like Star Trek), there is no overarching villain. Each story is self-contained, although sometimes there's a bigger story looming in the background that becomes the focus from time-to-time. Police or legal dramas have an endless parade of crimes to solve, criminals to put behind bars. Major villains are frequently thwarted, but not killed outright. They return again and again. The advantage of an approach where characters remain at a certain level for a long time is that you have time to get to know the characters. For the characters to grow. To see how they'll handle a certain situation, survive this challenge, etc. Knowing that they [I]aren't[/I] the most powerful beings in the universe. That survival or success isn't assured. While I love the D&D 5e ruleset, it's heavily weighted toward success. Level advancement is very fast, and new abilities every couple of levels. Next week's monsters are "bigger and better" and encounters are designed around mathematical equations driving toward combat, but make sure it's not too hard. The APs are designed to bring characters from 1st level to 15th level (with some variations), with a big story to go with it. Once you reach the end, there isn't really many places to go with those characters from there. The design seems to imply it's time to make new characters and pick up the next AP, instead of maintaining the same characters across multiple APs. That's an inherent problem with the "level-up as a goal" design - eventually you level out of the system. It's always been a challenge for DMs, and 4e tried to address it, but the 4e approach had its own issues. Mostly because as long as level advancement and gaining new abilities is the goal of the game, you can only go so far. It reminds my of a common problem TV shows have at the end of a season. Instead of continuing with their development of the characters and their stories, there's some big event that shakes up the world of the show. Half the cast might be dead next season! Except that the first episode of the new season neatly resolves the issues, and everything goes back to normal (often completely ignoring the ramifications of those couple of episodes). Of course, the end of the next season has to be even bigger. While I understand that Spielberg and Lucas wanted to get away from the Nazis in the Indiana Jones franchise, they are the perfect type of villain, like the Russians in Bond or other spy series of the era. You can't destroy the ultimate villains and their network, just thwart their current plans. War settings in general work well as a backdrop, as there are always stories to tell, missions, or challenges that somebody must handle, but you know they aren't going to defeat the opposing army single-handedly. The mob is a good model for an a villainous organization (or organizations, as they have rivals of their own). But recent RPG design recommends against recurring villains. Expect that the encounter with your villain will result in the death of the villain. Don't take away your player's victory by allowing the villain to get away. The design model is to drive toward the encounter with the BBEG, and success is defined as the destruction of the BBEG. As I was going through the AD&D PHB recently, a picture near the end struck me as a perfect example of how the focus of RPGs has shifted. It's a picture of a small group of adventurers leaving the dungeon. The rogue (thief) has a bag of loot, and is looking back, as if there's more to be found, and there's a silhouette of a dwarf, and a fighter, holding a bag of loot, and raising his axe to the sky. And to me the picture is all about survival. Not the big battle with the BBEG, but we simply got some treasure, had some adventure, and survived. They are excited simply to be able to leave the dungeon, to adventure another day. There doesn't have to be any more story than that. Like a cop show, each episode is about a new crime to solve, a new criminal to identify and stop. A party of adventurers just has one more dungeon to explore. Come back to town, blow it on the high life, and go back and get some more. There doesn't even have to be a big story to go with it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against their being a story. But it doesn't always have to be "bigger and better" than the last one. [/QUOTE]
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