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Let's Not Save The World...Again
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7718778" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>I forgot Dragonlance predated the Realms. The original WoG was designed specifically to be a rough framework for the DM to flesh out, but yes, it was expanded upon in Dragon magazine.</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>Yes, level advancement was an integral part of the game, but it was much slower (especially if you didn't award XP for treasure), and you didn't gain as much when you did go up levels. Furthermore, you even stopped gaining hit points (other than Constitution bonuses) after about 10th level. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>I was kind of interested, and posted this in another thread, but comparing level advancement and the number of ogres it takes to get there:</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>20th level in 5e is 355,000 XP, and assuming a party of 4, amounts to 3,156 ogres. In 1e to gain the same amount of XP was 6,762 ogres and you would be:</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>8th level monk</em></em></p><p><em><em>9th level cleric, fighter, paladin</em></em></p><p><em><em>10th level ranger, magic user, illusionist, assassin (25,000 XP short of an 11th level magic user)</em></em></p><p><em><em>11th level thief</em></em></p><p><em><em>12th level druid</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>The tables in 1e didn't go to 20th level. I can't remember if they provided updated tables before or after 2e. But it was quite different. Do the math using the tables in the 5e DMG. If you have the recommended number of daily encounters, with the recommended XP per day earned, then you're talking about reaching 20th level in less than 35 days. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>Adventuring Day XP (pg 84) - a character is expected to earn:</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>At 1st level - 300 XP - so you're 2nd level after adventuring day #1.</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>Let's look higher up the list - If you're 10th level, you should be earning 9000 XP per adventuring day. You start 10th level at 64,000 XP, and need 21,000 XP to get to 11th. That's less than 3 days then. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>Compare that to AD&D. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em><em>The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth</em> (not including the wilderness encounters getting to the dungeon), has treasure with a monetary value of roughly 250,000 gp. We'll ignore the fact that getting it out all out of the dungeon would be nearly impossible. The monster XP is about 150,000. So a total potential XP of 400,000 if you get all the treasure and kill all the monsters. Now there's a note that says you can allow them to gain a level without training if they are playing well. Otherwise, you couldn't gain a level until you returned to town to train. And you weren't allowed to jump levels, so if you gained too many XP, you'd still usually gain at most only 1 level after an entire adventure. There are 40 rooms in this one. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>Anyway, the adventure was designed for 6-8 characters of 6-8th level. It provides 6 pregens. So divide the 400,000 by 6, or 66,667 XP each. Here's a few of them:</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>6th level dwarven fighter start: 35,001-70,000 XP; 7th level: 70,001-125,000 XP - gained 1 level</em></em></p><p><em><em>7th level human cleric start: 55,001-110,000 XP; 8th level: 110,001-225,000 - gained 1 level</em></em></p><p><em><em>8th level human fighter start: 125,001-250,000; 9th level: 250,001-500,000 - gained 1 level. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>In one entire adventure, you gained 1 level. That's it. There were 56 magic items in the dungeon, btw. Including one each of the manuals/tomes so it granted each character a +1 ASI.</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>So what about their 'APs' - if you were playing GDQ1-7, that's seven separate adventures, then you'd gain seven levels over the course of them. Or about half of what you get in a modern AP.</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>I also remembered why I switched to a more story based XP approach very early one. To start, you pretty much only gained one level per adventure. We didn't even do that most of the time. I don't think I ever realized that anyway. But what a pain calculating the XP for every monster in the adventure. They didn't do that. So you'd have: 20 stirges: XP 36 + 2/hp. So not only did you have to look them up (they weren't in the adventure), but you had to calculate based on hp.</em></em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7718778, member: 6778044"] [I] [I] I forgot Dragonlance predated the Realms. The original WoG was designed specifically to be a rough framework for the DM to flesh out, but yes, it was expanded upon in Dragon magazine. Yes, level advancement was an integral part of the game, but it was much slower (especially if you didn't award XP for treasure), and you didn't gain as much when you did go up levels. Furthermore, you even stopped gaining hit points (other than Constitution bonuses) after about 10th level. I was kind of interested, and posted this in another thread, but comparing level advancement and the number of ogres it takes to get there: 20th level in 5e is 355,000 XP, and assuming a party of 4, amounts to 3,156 ogres. In 1e to gain the same amount of XP was 6,762 ogres and you would be: 8th level monk 9th level cleric, fighter, paladin 10th level ranger, magic user, illusionist, assassin (25,000 XP short of an 11th level magic user) 11th level thief 12th level druid The tables in 1e didn't go to 20th level. I can't remember if they provided updated tables before or after 2e. But it was quite different. Do the math using the tables in the 5e DMG. If you have the recommended number of daily encounters, with the recommended XP per day earned, then you're talking about reaching 20th level in less than 35 days. Adventuring Day XP (pg 84) - a character is expected to earn: At 1st level - 300 XP - so you're 2nd level after adventuring day #1. Let's look higher up the list - If you're 10th level, you should be earning 9000 XP per adventuring day. You start 10th level at 64,000 XP, and need 21,000 XP to get to 11th. That's less than 3 days then. Compare that to AD&D. [I]The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth[/I] (not including the wilderness encounters getting to the dungeon), has treasure with a monetary value of roughly 250,000 gp. We'll ignore the fact that getting it out all out of the dungeon would be nearly impossible. The monster XP is about 150,000. So a total potential XP of 400,000 if you get all the treasure and kill all the monsters. Now there's a note that says you can allow them to gain a level without training if they are playing well. Otherwise, you couldn't gain a level until you returned to town to train. And you weren't allowed to jump levels, so if you gained too many XP, you'd still usually gain at most only 1 level after an entire adventure. There are 40 rooms in this one. Anyway, the adventure was designed for 6-8 characters of 6-8th level. It provides 6 pregens. So divide the 400,000 by 6, or 66,667 XP each. Here's a few of them: 6th level dwarven fighter start: 35,001-70,000 XP; 7th level: 70,001-125,000 XP - gained 1 level 7th level human cleric start: 55,001-110,000 XP; 8th level: 110,001-225,000 - gained 1 level 8th level human fighter start: 125,001-250,000; 9th level: 250,001-500,000 - gained 1 level. In one entire adventure, you gained 1 level. That's it. There were 56 magic items in the dungeon, btw. Including one each of the manuals/tomes so it granted each character a +1 ASI. So what about their 'APs' - if you were playing GDQ1-7, that's seven separate adventures, then you'd gain seven levels over the course of them. Or about half of what you get in a modern AP. I also remembered why I switched to a more story based XP approach very early one. To start, you pretty much only gained one level per adventure. We didn't even do that most of the time. I don't think I ever realized that anyway. But what a pain calculating the XP for every monster in the adventure. They didn't do that. So you'd have: 20 stirges: XP 36 + 2/hp. So not only did you have to look them up (they weren't in the adventure), but you had to calculate based on hp.[/i][/i] [/QUOTE]
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