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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zardnaar" data-source="post: 7645802" data-attributes="member: 6716779">I thought it worked like that but was not 100% sure. Anyway the quest continues.Chapter 3 Classes A big difference in PF2 with the classes is that each class now has a set amount of hit points more or less a maximised HD from previous editions (fighters get 10 hp, clerics 8 etc). A new class called the alchemist has been added. Each class more or less follows an identical template of bonus feats, racial, class, general etc with the differences being in the starting package, class feats and class abilities added to the each classes table.  Right from the get go though something stands out and that is its complexity. Consider a Dwarven fighter. in B/X all those year ago you had 7 choices, AD&D separating class and races had around 50 probably less due to racial restrictions. Here are the steps to make a Dwarf fighter and I'll just cover the main steps.1. Select an ancestry 6 options. We pick Dwarf.2. Pick a heritage (5 options)3. Pick a racial feat (6 options)4. Pick a background (35 options)5. Pick a class (12 options) we pick fighter6. Pick a fighter feat (7 options) Just those steps there is over 500 000 combinations. This excludes your skills and how to assign your boosts. 5E made a fair bit of that optional and back grounds are not such a big element of your character. I've experienced 3.0, 3.5, 4E, Pathfinder and star Wars Saga and this is actually the hardest one yet. Each class is also huge in terms of page count. The basic fighter takes up 13 pages. This is a similar page count to 4E and that went to level 30 and the fighter class starts on page 140, in 5E that is approaching the feats section IIRC. Star Wars Saga puts its soldier around page 50 IIRC. You had better hope complexity is your thing. its not even in a particularly easy to digest format with a lot of cross referencing required which makes spellcaster lists from 3.5 seem simple by comparison. Its enough to add up to a down vote IMHO.  Another popular online meme has been comparing pathfinder 2 classes to 4E. The classes are not trying to emulate 4E's play style in any way o hats a big difference and I think that is the main problem 4E had in the edition wars. However the formatting of the classes does remind one of 4E in a lot of ways with a fairly universal class progression system, 4E hit points at level 1 (race+class+con modifier) a similar page count number, the feats could be redone as powers, a lot of key wording used and a universal class progression with the class powers basically being class features and spellcaster spells in this. Also they have kind of eliminated multiple attacks at least as class features although there is the odd feat that sorta enable it and anyone can multi attack with the new 3 action system. 4E love it or hate it was formatted a lot better than this and was easier to understand. Its a slight improvement over the play test but if you hated that aspect of the play test not much has changed really. Overall its another down vote as its actually hard to read all of this, harder than it needs to be to follow it, and a lot of cross referencing required, even using the PRD only makes it marginally better. its another down vote.  And guess what no messing around here there another down vote incoming to make 3 right off the bat. The reason is the class feats/features themselves are full of minor or even worse minor and situational +1's or something similar that don't do a lot. A lot of this could also be compressed and a lot of these feats compare poorly to something as basic as 5E's fighting styles that Rangers, Paladins and Fighters get. Its almost headache inducing and being honest its a pain in the butt, reading 3.0 or 3.5 is actually an improvement as the feats at least are shunted ff into another chapter. The reason I put the 3 down votes first is you have to get past all of the above to get to the good parts IMHO. If people rage quite PF2, give up or just go meh its this chapter that will do it IMHO. PF2 main problem IMHO is 5E existing. For self inflicted wounds this chapter here will do it. Its a hurdle and i you can get over it. Now I'll list the upvotes. The final step of apply the last boosts and pick your stuff. If you can get your head around it the process is kind of fun and that is worth an upvote. if you can't get your head around it or can't be bothered its a YMMV type situation. Then again it possible its just relief of getting this far. Some of the options are fairly basic but certain things start coming together as good parts of 3.X start shining through and there are a lot more options as well due to the free racial boost the race get. 5E still rewards you heavily for certain race and class combos with a decent amount of system knowledge and/or rolled stats to break out of the box the system kind of builds for you. For example a human heritage half orc wizard can hit 18 intelligence and take human options to pick up hand of the adept feat and marry it do 1d12+ int mod battle axe and throw it 500'. And they can do that 3 times a round (at -5 and 10 on the 2nd and 3rd attacks). Or a human can borrow cantrips from other classes perhaps the bard for example and cast 3 spells a round so they could cast an 2 attack spell cantrips and use inspire courage granting allies +1 to hit, saves, skills. These are a couple of examples I have found but they are kind of interesting. Anyway its an upvote there is a lot of interesting things to find hidden in there.  One more upvote as well, the execution might be slightly off but they have at least divorced combat and non combat abilities with their new class system. In 3.0, 3.5, 4E, Star Wars Saga Edition and 5E the feats are all competing and their is opportunity cost involved in picking a non combat feat over a combat feat. Pathfinder 2 kind of just gives you both and this is the first real time "D&D" has made that distinction since AD&D 2E which had weapon and non weapon proficiency's. 4E kind of tried with its utility powers but the feats had the same issues as everything else. I'll leave it there, this is more of an impression of the classes but this chapter is hard to digest and is going to require a fair bit of patience and game play to figure out. This chapter is very subjective IMHO and you will probably love or hate it depending on your own personal tastes.</blockquote>

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