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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jer" data-source="post: 8517718" data-attributes="member: 19857">I dunno - there's a pretty wide gulf between something like Palladium Fantasy - which is an obvious attend to do a better D&D - and Ars Magica - which was also an attempt to do a better D&D but was more subtle about it and ended up creating something completely different.  I'd call Palladium Fantasy a heartbreaker despite its own success but I wouldn't apply that label to Ars Magica.(Amusingly D&D now looks a lot more like Ars Magica than it did when Ars Magica was created.  I can see the mechanics that Jon Tweet drew consciously or unconsciously into 3e that end up making D&D more like Ars in mechanics.)</blockquote>