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<blockquote data-quote="Wyrmshadows" data-source="post: 4443626" data-attributes="member: 56166">Don't like them.&nbsp;I don't like the Buffy the Vampire feel of them. I liked buffy but that was goofy, not heroic, fantasy IMO. I can't wrap my brain around the idea of a 15th level minion who dies with the thrust of a walking stick thrust at it by a 15th level scholar type while that same scholar could never do the same thing to a 6th level fighter even though a 6th level fighter is supposed to be a weakling compared to any 15th level character. But if this 15th level minion turned its attention on a 6th level fighter everything falls apart. IMO minions can be most effectively used when sending children, peasant mobs or a horde of housecats at the PCs.&nbsp;IMO minions are a bizarre abstraction that is an attempt to make PCs seem heroic when in fact I haven't seen a problem with PCs looking heroic in over 23yrs of DMing. Seems like a solution where there wasn't a problem. There are questions like what happens when a minion punches a minion or what happens when a minion turns its attention to a lower level individual nearby and other questions that can only be solved by handwaving.&nbsp;One of my players asked me (to paraphrase) during some 4e playtesting &quot;So what if we can take down an army of creatures that die with one hit?&quot; Its a play style neither myself nor my players like because my game presupposes a world that exists outside the PCs and that reality doesn't suddenly shift because the PCs engage it. I think a consistancy of reality is important for a believable setting and immersive game. &nbsp;I get that HPs are abstract (which is why I prefer WP/VP) but then there are abstractions so abstract I feel that I might as well just describe a battle in order to make the PCs feel heroic as opposed to sending balloons at them pop no matter what the PCs do to them, no matter what type of creature they are.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wyrmshadows</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wyrmshadows, post: 4443626, member: 56166"] Don't like them. I don't like the Buffy the Vampire feel of them. I liked buffy but that was goofy, not heroic, fantasy IMO. I can't wrap my brain around the idea of a 15th level minion who dies with the thrust of a walking stick thrust at it by a 15th level scholar type while that same scholar could never do the same thing to a 6th level fighter even though a 6th level fighter is supposed to be a weakling compared to any 15th level character. But if this 15th level minion turned its attention on a 6th level fighter everything falls apart. IMO minions can be most effectively used when sending children, peasant mobs or a horde of housecats at the PCs. IMO minions are a bizarre abstraction that is an attempt to make PCs seem heroic when in fact I haven't seen a problem with PCs looking heroic in over 23yrs of DMing. Seems like a solution where there wasn't a problem. There are questions like what happens when a minion punches a minion or what happens when a minion turns its attention to a lower level individual nearby and other questions that can only be solved by handwaving. One of my players asked me (to paraphrase) during some 4e playtesting [I]"So what if we can take down an army of creatures that die with one hit?"[/I] Its a play style neither myself nor my players like because my game presupposes a world that exists outside the PCs and that reality doesn't suddenly shift because the PCs engage it. I think a consistancy of reality is important for a believable setting and immersive game. I get that HPs are abstract (which is why I prefer WP/VP) but then there are abstractions so abstract I feel that I might as well just describe a battle in order to make the PCs feel heroic as opposed to sending balloons at them pop no matter what the PCs do to them, no matter what type of creature they are. Wyrmshadows [/QUOTE]

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