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<blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 4456747" data-attributes="member: 58197">I think you're missing the point.&nbsp; Any attack that does hit point damage is an attack that can kill.&nbsp; It can kill minions and it can kill PCs and it can kill solo monsters.&nbsp; If an ancient dragon normally has 1,500 hit points, and it's been beaten down to 1 hit point, and you do 1 point of damage to it, it dies.Consequently, if an attack form cannot plausibly be lethal, it should not be able to do hit point damage.&nbsp; Ever.&nbsp; To anything.&nbsp; I don't care how badly beaten up that ancient dragon is, I cannot imagine any circumstance in which a thumb in the eye turns a living dragon into a dead dragon.(Or, to put it another way, let's say the dragon is fully healthy at 1,500 hit points.&nbsp; You walk up to it, paralyze it somehow, and then poke it in the eye 1,500 times.&nbsp; Does this result in a dead dragon?)You can inflict damage with unarmed attacks, yes.&nbsp; That doesn't mean a poke in the eye counts.&nbsp; You have to apply some common sense here.&nbsp; If I reach out and tap an opponent lightly with the tip of my greatsword, that's not going to inflict 1d10 + Str damage, even though it's an offensive action performed with a greatsword.(Of course, there are some cases where any unarmed attack doing damage is kind of implausible.&nbsp; I'm not real clear on what kind of martial arts moves you'd use to take down a fifty-foot dragon.&nbsp; But that's a separate concern from minions.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dausuul, post: 4456747, member: 58197"] I think you're missing the point. Any attack that does hit point damage is an attack that can kill. It can kill minions and it can kill PCs and it can kill solo monsters. If an ancient dragon normally has 1,500 hit points, and it's been beaten down to 1 hit point, and you do 1 point of damage to it, it dies. Consequently, if an attack form cannot plausibly be lethal, it should not be able to do hit point damage. Ever. To anything. I don't care how badly beaten up that ancient dragon is, I cannot imagine any circumstance in which a thumb in the eye turns a living dragon into a dead dragon. (Or, to put it another way, let's say the dragon is fully healthy at 1,500 hit points. You walk up to it, paralyze it somehow, and then poke it in the eye 1,500 times. Does this result in a dead dragon?) You can inflict damage with unarmed attacks, yes. That doesn't mean a poke in the eye counts. You have to apply some common sense here. If I reach out and tap an opponent lightly with the tip of my greatsword, that's not going to inflict 1d10 + Str damage, even though it's an offensive action performed with a greatsword. (Of course, there are some cases where [I]any[/I] unarmed attack doing damage is kind of implausible. I'm not real clear on what kind of martial arts moves you'd use to take down a fifty-foot dragon. But that's a separate concern from minions.) [/QUOTE]

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